Here's the tesla experience.

Pull into charge, plug in the car, start charging.

Here's the competition.

Pull into charge, plug in the car, Maybe swipe a credit if you are lucky and start charging. Likely, you need to install a 3rd party app first then you need to feed that app your CC information and then you need to tell that app a station number to activate. You better hope there's good internet because if there's not you might not be able to charge.

Further, for stations that do take a credit card or tap and pay. It's like 50/50 on whether or not it will actually go through. Usually it takes a crazy long time to actually validate the card number before charging (Like, I've waited 10 minutes before for a charge to start!).

Then if and when you finally get through all that, you are likely charging at a much slower speed than a Supercharger.

Using a Supercharger is even easier and more seamless than refueling with gas. Other EV chargers are generally much worse than gas. I hope they get there eventually, but right now it is a night and day difference in my experience.

Agreed. I don't care too much about the charge time or cost myself as even with the hiked rates, charging is generally comparable or cheaper than a gas fill up (which only strikes on road trips for me).

What I really care about is how much time I'm interacting with the charge equipment. It sucks to be standing outside in the freezing cold waiting for your card to maybe get accepted only to find out that for some dumb reason the machine decides to decline it (forcing you to use an app which you likely don't have).

There's no reason all EV charging can't be a better experience than gas charging. There's already a data line established when you plug in (Both CCS and Chademo have data lines) so it should be beyond trivial for there to be a standard payment scheme (It should have existed from the start).

ISO 15518-2 does specify a "Plug and Charge" scheme. Tritium's chargers support this at least.

> Then if and when you finally get through all that, you are likely charging at a much slower speed than a Supercharger.

That depends completely on the charger. "Normal" DC charging stations are 50kW around here.

HVDC chargers go up to 350kW, but not many cars can utilise all of that, most cap out at 75-100kW.

It's easier and more seamless, but it's also a lot slower to fill up. I guess that's why the car has Netflix...

TBH, the charge time hasn't really bothered me. I've got a phone which I can surf the internet on or netflix in the car. Most charging spots are usually near enough to food or bathrooms so I can generally grab something to eat or use restrooms.

If you plan things out well, you generally don't end up waiting too long for fast charging.

In 99% of cases you don't need to specifically wait for the car to charge. You can go do your shopping, grab lunch, smoke etc. Stuff you most definitely can't do while refueling a car =)

You forgot that you can route to a supercharger and it will pre-condition the batter for charging so it is faster. Also, it will show you how full the charger is, directly from the app.

Hadn't heard of this. Is it basically sloshing remaining charge around the available individual cells / packs to optimize for charge time?

It warms the battery so that it can charge faster. A cold battery can't charge/discharge as quickly.

It's getting the cell temperature correct usually by heating up the cells.

I've also noticed that USA-based users of CCS chargers often report needing to fiddle with the plug to get the car to charge.

Most of the reports I've seen are drivers of the e-Tron, Bolt and Setec CCS (for Tesla) adapter. They often report needing to put pressure on the handle while the station is handshaking with the car to avoid spurious ground isolation faults and/or communication errors. I don't recall reading anything similar with Teslas at Superchargers.

Given that this happens across manufacturers, I'm inclined to think that it is either a design flaw with CCS or a not-clearly-specified part of the CCS spec.

You forgot to mention they usually cost 2x what the supercharger costs and charge super slow.

You forgot:

Look up nearest charge station on chargepoint. Pull into charge, ICE car is parked there. Wait indefinitely or look for another charge.

My personal worst experience was pulling into an ElectrifyAmerica station and finding that the only charger working was charging at about half the speed it should have been. They operate on a pay-by-the-minute scheme so it not only took longer but it also cost more!

EA chargers also put you in a price tier based on how much energy your car can _accept_, meaning we were paying the 75kWh price for 30kWh of actual acceptance.

Fortunately after talking to support for several minutes they rebooted all of the chargers and one of them charged at a more reasonable speed (but still not the full 75kWh we wanted), and they comped the charge at that machine.

They've fixed this btw sometime in 2020, they charge $0.31 per kw now.

Not near me! Pass+ members charge at $0.12/min for vehicles under 90kWh.

This is in Texas, by the way.

Kw is power. Do you mean kwh?

And don’t forget the price is way too high. I don’t know how much a Tesla charger charges, but the 3rd party ones I’ve looked at are ridiculous.

The prices I've seen are also slightly more expensive than Superchargers.

EA is at $0.31 a kw in California, just slightly cheaper than Superchargers in California which are slightly above the national average.

So, swipe a credit card. Install an app. Sorry, that's not ideal ... but that doesn't seem to be a deal breaker.

Particularly regarding the app. Do I complain that I need to install Sonos and Prime Music and Apple Play once to do what I want?

Do you have to install an app when you get gas from Shell or BP? No.

Also, you seem to have only picked on part of the inconvenience given that this exists:

> Like, I've waited 10 minutes before for a charge to start!

Putting a hard dependence on someone having a smart phone, and reliable internet in order to get gas or charge their car is a ludicrous step backwards in user experience compared to either the (described) Tesla experience or filling your car with gas.

Do I install an app for many other things I do online? Erm, yes!

Fair point on the need to be online to use the service. However, not unusual these days.

Your last point? I have similar feelings towards Tesla putting a hard dependence on someone having a Tesla in order to charge up.

But anyhoo.

If the public demonstrates willingness to use charging that requires a specific app for each brand…

Then it's only a matter of time before gas station brands start requiring the same (or pricing a bunch more if you don't have it).

Another doozie is that 3rd party chargers are often in garages in the city and you lose cell service meaning the app doesn't even work. lol. I've had that happen more times than I care to count when I use my chademo charger for my tesla.

The worst part of this is taking the time to get the app all settled (hope they don't need to mail you a membership card!) and then find out that the charger is broken or slower than advertised. The state of things for non-Tesla charging is horrendous right now. Mostly thanks to big oil's attempt to corrupt every EV player ever, from the standards to the permitting to the carmakers. Now they're trying to own the space but they're faced with owning their own enormous mess. A tragedy of modern proportions.

>Do I complain that I need to install Sonos and Prime Music and Apple Play once to do what I want?

No, because there is no easily available alternative to this that gets rid of those pain points in you example. While for EVs, there is. Hence the whole disappointment.

It is much more difficult to accept inconveniences, when you have an option available that shows you that it is possible to perform the exact same functions, but without dealing with those inconveniences.

"without dealing with those inconveniences" but by having to own a particular brand of car.

Seems like the same problem to me, but from two different ends of the spectrum.

I mean, the parent comment is explicitly comparing the experiences. When the comparison is between that and literally just plugging in and immediately starting to charge, that is a pretty big deal.

It’s not just one time, it’s every time you do a larger road trip. That’s very much a case of death by a thousand cuts.

Seems to be the same problem to me from two ends of the same stick.

That ideal experience of just plugging in and immediately starting to charge is restricted to a particular car brand.

From that perspective, what a ridiculous situation which could be solved with cooperation but ... anyways, USB-C, Lion, etc etc ...

In conclusion, not just the independent charging networks are at fault here.

Many times the third party chargers are broken, or vandalized. Some have screens which are completely unreadable after a few years in the sun. They’re sited in inconvenient spots, such as mall parking lots, which have nothing open after 9pm.

That being said, the Tesla charging network is far from perfect. Check to see how many US National Parks you can practically visit with a Tesla. Carlsbad Caverns? Nope. North Rim of the Grand Canyon? Barely.

Apparently this reddit post from three years ago doesn't think so: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6oq1wb/an_upda.... Looks like only four National Parks aren't (as of three years ago) within round trip distance of a Supercharger, and Carlsbad isn't one of them.

Carlsbad caverns is ~100 miles from the nearest supercharger. It wouldn't be a comfortable round trip even with a Y Long Range. With a standard range vehicle, it is not doable.

Some of those that are near the mid 250s would be risky, especially as the car is likely to be loaded down with above average mass, maybe some bikes or a roof luggage unit hurting aero. Guess you could drive slow.

Furthermore, people often don't drive to a national park, drive around a bit, and head back. When I visit Death Valley, I probably drive hundreds of miles within the park.

I was in Death Valley last weekend. Drove there from SF with Model Y, ended up renting an ICE car to explore the park, especially since we were staying 1.5 hours from the center of the park.

I saw several Teslas around the park, and I think it's doable if you only want to visit say 1 or 2 locations, but without a Supercharger in the middle of the park, you will be limited and won't have the flexibility to see everything.

The resort in the middle of the park has 4 J1772 chargers, which would help if you were staying in the park overnight, but we were simply doing day trips.

OK. I've always stayed at Furnace Creek for a number of days and done things like drive up to Ubehebe Crater, Charcoal kilns, etc.

Ok, when I went to Carlsbad, I first drove to Carlsbad NM via El Paso, spent the night, and from there drove to the caverns, returning to Carlsbad that night. As my hotel didn’t have a destination charger, the drive couldn’t be done in the Tesla, and I opted to drive an internal combustion vehicle. But let’s say I was determined to drive the Tesla, and not spend the night in Carlsbad. The trip from El Paso to Carlsbad caverns requires a trip to Van Horn first, for a total round trip of 454 miles, and over 8 hours. With an internal combustion vehicle, it’s a direct drive, 304 miles round trip, in just 5 hours. An additional 3 hours and 150 miles in the Tesla? No thanks.

The story for the north rim of the Grand Canyon is similar. In the Tesla, from Flagstaff, you must first drive to Page, AZ. Round trip 508 miles and 10 hours. In an internal combustion, its 422 miles and roughly 8.5 hours. When you arrive at the north rim in the Tesla, you can’t go anywhere else, and you must return the way you came.

Tesla should work on optimizing their National Park experience, as it’s the classic destination of an old fashioned American road trip.

Although you are correct in general, there is a trick - buy a NEMA 14-50 RV adapter and stay overnight at an RV campground or state park, wake up to a fully charged car in the morning.

> third party chargers are broken, or vandalized

The Chargepoint / third-party ones in Seattle have almost universally destroyed screens by vandals.

Not OP, but 3rd party chargers often:

1) require a new app to be installed 2) require you to create an account and add your credit card info 3) are broken 4) work, but charge slower than they should

While a minor thing, I wanted to add to this, even when everything works properly and on the first try with third party chargers, you gotta pull out your phone and open the app (or use it as an Apple Wallet card, if the charging station supports it) to activate the charger and start the whole charging process.

As opposed to superchargers, where you literally just plug the charger in and that's it, everything is handled for you.

Who the heck thought an app was a good idea? Complete non starter for me.

It's twofold. One, they want some way to notify you back when your charge session is nearing completion, or if you get unplugged unexpectedly. Two, they want the data on your usage individually identified, so they can sell/mine it.

They really should just call your phone, I can't think of a single other long-wait activity that forces you to install spyware. Oil changes, doctor / dentist appointments, furniture delivery, etc. They all just give you a call

Many people don't want to give their SMS-capable number to a random charging station in another state. I don't mind giving my number to my doctor, but a charging station is a different risk profile.

Frankly I’d rather install an app on my iPhone than give the company my phone number. At least with an app I can deny location, contacts, and all other access.

What makes you think that company XYZ will let you use their app if you deny location, contact, etc. access?

From a security point of view, that seems insane.

Just because you want a call doesn't mean everyone else does.

I'd much rather have an app notify me than an automated phone call, I (and most people I know) probably wouldn't even pick it up.

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I can uninstall an app, I can't ungive someone my phone number.

To each their own! I can not stand having random apps installed on my phone. They all eventually turn into notification spamming spyware. I get spam phone calls all the time anyway, have the charging station call / text me and leave me a message instead

Ok that is a good point, optional app integration is sensible.

They really should have a card reader option. Personally I don’t mind an app if it was a unified app across all chargers. Having to download a new app, enter card info, personal info etc just to use a charger once while away from your regular area is super annoying.

I think they are optional in general, but often more reliable. These locations are unstaffed and often directly exposed to the elements. The cardreaders don't seem to hold up well.

They should be able to accept contactless cards only, without a PIN. Plenty of contactless-card vending machines (drinks etc) and ticket machines (train tickets etc) in Asia and Europe cope with the weather.

Yes, unless you're using the newest and rarest non-superchargers, you're looking at 8-14kW vs 50-150kW. Also there are 3 or more different ones (so one app isn't enough) and because they take so long to charge people often park for extended (e.g. 4+ hours) periods. They border on useless, unless they happen to be where you work or live, if what you're looking for is a quick fill-up.

Chargers have the same quality and reliability as a free public WiFi. Often broken, slow, difficult to activate, and nobody cares.

The market is fragmented. Chargers are run by different companies. Very often you can't even use them, because they don't accept card payments, and expect you to have a membership, or at best use their custom shitty app.