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Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by aphextron on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:06PM (#25851256)
I think you've nailed what this is. Much like the "robot burger chain" and other such ventures, it's another niche novelty for the rich.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by mediaman on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:17PM (#25851391)
In California, yes, because they are grown naturally there, and growing in a vertical farm seems kind of pointless, except as novelty.

But on the East Coast, vertical farms can serve a useful economic purpose for some crops which would otherwise be trucked in from the Salinas Valley.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:23PM (#25851485)
The transportation costs of produce have been demonstrated to be negligible.

Imported produce is typically aggressively price-competitive with the local stuff.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by epistasis on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:29PM (#25851565)
That trucking process means getting produce optimized for transport, rather than produce optimized for flavor. The costs are not only in dollars, but in quality.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by LinuxBender on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:14PM (#25852084)
Agreed and this has been proven already in greenhouse farming. There are many greenhouse farmers that grow crops that would otherwise be impossible to grow in their zone. One example is a orange tree grower in a very cold zone that can sell oranges to his local community at a tiny fraction of what it costs to ship oranges from California. He still makes a profit and the produce is fresh.

Here is a small scale example [1] but I can't fault this guy for keeping it small given his advanced age. I hope I have that much energy when I am older.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_3_gsgsnk

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by flukus on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:33PM (#25852286)
There are some remarkably low tech ways to grow citrus in cold climates: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/04/fruit-trenches-culti...
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by KaiserPro on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:48PM (#25851784)
no, they are optimised for mass production. Not shipping.

Shipping isn't that damaging to plants, compared to a 55mph wind.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by epistasis on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:57PM (#25851895)
Decay time is a huge factor in selective breeding, and also in the harvest time of produce shipped across the country versus used locally.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:36PM (#25851640)
You're telling me that produce grown in its optimal environmental conditions and flash-frozen at harvest is going to taste worse than something grown in a truck in a parkinglot in Brooklyn?

I call bullshit. It's pretty much universally agreed that frozen fruit is fresher and often tastes better, for example.

Flavor is more about varieties being selected for mass production rather than their growing method and transportation. You can transport heirloom tomatoes. Nothing stopping you.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:50PM (#25851810)
Unquestionably worse. Recognize that "taste" is some mixture of flavor and texture.

I challenge you to slice a thawed tomato the way you would a vine fresh one and tell me there isn't a difference. Same goes for most leafy greens and fruits.

Delicate cellular structures of high water content vegetables are completely obliterated when frozen and then thawed or otherwise processed.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:13PM (#25852065)
Hydroponically grown vegetables don't typically taste good either. (Common complaints being: bland, weak, "oily", boring). That's the reason why this operation in the article is using soil in their growbeds. It's the only way to get plants that are worth selling.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by 1helloworld1 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:48PM (#25851786)
I don't think you can flash freeze leafy greens and still maintain the texture. Have you eaten flash frozen lettuce for salad?
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by Scoundreller on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @07:04PM (#25853589)
I mean like, why not? I think the issue with leafy greens is that they're fairly stable, travel well and grow well/quickly in greenhouses, so it's not worth flash freezing them.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by nicoburns on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @08:40PM (#25854290)
Because they're mostly water, and water expands when frozen, destroying the structure of the plant.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:05AM (#25860307)
You know what else destroys the structure of the plant? Chewing.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by Scoundreller on Thursday January 21, 2021 @11:42AM (#25860828)
That’s a part of the experience though. Freezing will preserve the nutrients, but risks the “mouthfeel”.

But if you’re going to blend it, who cares.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by alpha_squared on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:28PM (#25851553)
Could that be because we don't yet have a carbon offset cost for transportation? I recognize that the actual cost would be controversial and mostly subjective, but I always wonder about how many things are 'free' or nearly just because there are otherwise hidden costs elsewhere (such as the environment).
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:32PM (#25851609)
This math has already been done.

Even if you figured the carbon offset cost, transporting agriculture still beats out all of these alternatives by a lot.

The math is only becomes slightly favorable to the subset of plants with high water content and lower sunlight tolerance. You can grow tomatos at nearly break-even. A diverse set of agriculture that can sustain people with balanced diets? Not a chance.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by iancmceachern on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:28AM (#25856131)
Yeah, but not as fresh or tasty. Those that can pay more for the better option will.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by lmm on Thursday January 21, 2021 @04:22AM (#25857035)
Historically they haven't - imported vegetables have beaten locally-grown ones handily. What's changed?
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by silicon2401 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:39PM (#25851679)
Not negligible in terms of pollution
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:44PM (#25851744)
Do you think that LED grow systems and the nutrients/chemicals being used to help grow these plants are pollution-free?
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by baxtr on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:19PM (#25851421)
Didn't literally anything common nowadays start out exactly like this?
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by blackearl on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:28PM (#25851554)
Most of the examples in the articles are grocery stores. The one restaurant mentioned looks like a burger joint, an upscale one, but a burger joint nonetheless. The gap between a whole foods vs a stop n shop is not that large, certainly nothing like the gap between a mcdonalds and a black tie restaurant.

If this reduces our carbon footprint and gives us fresher food as a bonus I'm all for it.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by ameister14 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:16PM (#25851380)
Yes, you nailed it - White Castle is a niche novelty for the rich.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by neartheplain on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:40PM (#25851688)
Whoah, I hadn't heard of White Castle's kitchen-bot. Pretty cool.

Initial trials went well, now they're rolling it out to 10 more locations:

https://www.businessinsider.com/white-castle-adds-more-flipp...

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:05PM (#25851978)
Factory produced white castle burgers have been in supermarket freezers for years (and aren't much worse than the 'fresh' ones, which are themselves firmly in the realm of junk food.) Machines making food is nothing new, but it seems a lot of people are keen on 'inventing' it. Remember the pizza company that wanted to use robots to make delivery pizzas? And the results were worse than frozen Red Baron pizzas that have been around since the 70s.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by ameister14 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:25PM (#25852186)
There's a pretty significant difference between robot made to order and robot made to freeze.

As you said, the latter has been around for a long time. That doesn't make the former any less of an achievement. This is robotics directly replacing employees in store.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:53PM (#25852491)
There really isn't much difference, the quality of a frozen white castle burger is about the same as fresh made by humans, and I doubt fresh made by robots would be much better. All three are going to be pretty crap.

The robot pizza company in particular was a joke. Viewed with a critical eye, the whole thing was technophiles blinded to obvious reality by their love for high tech gadgetry. Why else would you use a sophisticated robotic arm to transfer a pizza from one machine to another when a simple conveyor belt can do the job faster and need less space to do it?

White Castle is doubtlessly being smarter about it, but I'm pretty sure you could replace their restaurant employees with a microwave oven. BTW, automated restaurants are not new; look up 'automat'. If you're retrofitting a kitchen designed for humans, systems like what White Castle is experimenting with might make sense, but if you were to design an automatic kitchen from the ground up, I think it makes little sense.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by ameister14 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:38PM (#25853368)
>There really isn't much difference, the quality...

There are numerous process and operational differences between things made to order and things prepped and shipped. Both are honestly extremely impressive, though the latter is much farther along technologically in part because the scale of impact is greater and factories allow for larger capital expenditure since it's so much lower on a per product basis. That said, what I am talking about doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality of the end product.

>If you're retrofitting a kitchen designed for humans, systems like what White Castle is experimenting with might make sense

That's what they're doing. Sure, if you build all new buildings and kitchens it may make less sense but as a lower capital cost shift it totally fits.

>BTW, automated restaurants are not new; look up 'automat'.

Automating production is new. Automating service is not. Again, huge difference operationally.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by 908B64B197 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:40PM (#25851685)
The thing is, burgers are the same everywhere. Minimal wage isn't.

So once there's a robot that can cook burger in SF and break even, it works pretty much everywhere else where the minimum wage is greater or equal. Just take a look at Miso robotics.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by wavefunction on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:52PM (#25852476)
I find myself patronizing the fast-food locations that offer food prepared from fresh potatoes sliced every morning and grass-fed beef that apparently pay their workers a decent wage while costing about the same as the places that don't. The difference I suppose is that the local chains are not satisfying profit motives of stock speculators.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by bluGill on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @05:04PM (#25852597)
Once the robot exists you can duplicate it cheaper. Once it works in SF with high wages it works in Montana with low wages. It may eventually not work out in poorer countries.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by OldHand2018 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @12:57PM (#25861835)
> Once it works in SF with high wages it works in Montana with low wages.

Can it? The robot in SF may make financial sense because of high utilization. A low-wage worker can do 100+ useful tasks when the restaurant is not busy enough to require constant burger making. Is a burger-making robot flexible enough to match that?

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by bluGill on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:03PM (#25861917)
The robot can also sit around doing nothing without complaint and for no extra cost. So the robot need not be used 100% of the time. Even in SF the robot will not be used much at 2am.

Though I was referring to the small cities in Montana. Nobody will put a robotic burger joint where there are no people. However a town of 5000 has a lot of people who need to eat, more than enough to make it worth running numbers.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by 908B64B197 on Thursday January 21, 2021 @01:56PM (#25862560)
It won't replace all employees.

It'll just replace some.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by wernercd on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:59PM (#25852551)
What's available to the rich today becomes available to all tomorrow. Cars, TVs, Cell phones...
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by adamnemecek on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:08PM (#25851285)
I mean so is all new tech. Over time the price will go down and be affordable by more people.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:18PM (#25851408)
Why would the price of food from a 'vertical farm' (shipping container in a parking lot) go down relative to the price food from regular farms? Even if it made sense to grow using LEDs instead of direct sunlight, that could be done on rural land instead of urban parking lots. I don't think you'll ever get enough food grown in shipping containers in urban parking lots to be anything other than a curiosity for the wealthy.

These things are small by garden standards, let alone farm standards. How many people could one of these shipping containers keep fed? How many shipping containers would you need to feed a city of a million people?

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by pydry on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:51PM (#25851825)
The same way any new tech goes down in price - commoditization, automation and economies of scale.

It's unlikely they'll feed a million people all the food they'll need but it's likely they could feed a million people all of the leafy greens they need.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:56PM (#25851877)
"commoditization, automation and economies of scale."

Traditional farms have the clear and overwhelming advantage in all three of these. And they aren't standing still either, they benefit from the advance of technology too.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by pydry on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @06:03PM (#25853102)
The major advantage this has is that it shrinks the supply chain. Transporting fresh leafy greens is a bit of a nightmare because they go bad so quickly.

I don't expect these things to compete with a farm growing potatoes for a long while or even anything which keeps well enough in a fridge.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by inglor_cz on Thursday January 21, 2021 @03:18AM (#25856667)
Depends where you live. US has a lot of high-quality natural soil. Places like Israel and Saudi Arabia are much more limited by nature.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by Funes- on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @04:48PM (#25852440)
>How many shipping containers would you need to feed a city of a million people?

I guess the aspiration for the people behind this kind of vertical farming companies is to have as many containers out there as possible. It seems like proximity of supply is one of their main purported selling points. It makes sense from their standpoint.

Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by airstrike on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:20PM (#25851436)
Shipping costs virtually zero
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by stretchcat on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:23PM (#25851479)
A single truck can ship more food in one trip than one of these containers could produce in a year.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by monadic3 on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:16PM (#25851384)
In this case it seems directly proportional to the cost of energy, barring a solution where you use passive ways (like mirrors) to redirect light into the building.
Re:Vertical farms grow veggies on site at restaurants and gr... by busterarm on Wednesday January 20, 2021 @03:25PM (#25851507)
The sun delivers several orders of magnitude more energy and is free...