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Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by KronisLV on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @09:00PM (#25770854)
That does sound like a pretty stress-free way to live!

That said, living in Europe doesn't always equal good living conditions and stability - it depends on the particular country you're in as well.

My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev. My living expenses eat up around half of that. If a quick search turns up that in USA the median salary for a dev is around 100k$ per year ( https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope... ), that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year (depending on their disposable income, taxes, currency value etc.).

In short, i'd much prefer not to spend a decade to get to the point where i'm as financially stable who's worked for a year, if even that.

People oftentimes mention purchasing power parity, but it breaks down in a global economy: for example, i cannot afford AWS and most SaaS/PaaS tools.

That's just one of the reasons why one could look for a better financial situation. Compound interest and investments in general could be another. Stability and peace of mind, although not guaranteed, could be a third.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by drdaeman on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:40PM (#25771596)
> My net salary is just over 1000€

That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offense meant - it is a good country, just isn't one famous for high incomes), easily makes at least 2k (and I say "at least" - that's awfully underpaid).

> that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year

That's a bit exaggerated figure. It's 100k before taxes (so, around $5.8k/mo), and rent (or mortgage) costs are significantly higher (I believe it's around $1-3k/mo, highly varying depending on where you live and how comfortable you live). And it's not just rent but other expenses as well.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by dnpp123 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @11:16PM (#25771912)
> That's really low, even for poorer European countries

He said net salary. I know a lot of engineers from C schools in mid-size towns in France who are paid less than 2k euro net.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by jtwaleson on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:28AM (#25772869)
France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker".

Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you consider hiring me." With this mindset you don't expect high wages.

Hacker: I am a ninja rockstar, I don't need any certifications and you should be happy if I decide to work for you because I should actually be working at FAANG.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by erdo on Thursday January 14, 2021 @03:39AM (#25773759)
Well... just because a developer claims to be a senior engineer (with only 2 years experience) it doesn't actually make them a senior engineer, it makes them a bullsh*ter :D
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by theshrike79 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @05:18AM (#25774604)
Just like the fresh out of school CTOs and Principal Engineers in the US. Of course you get a fancy title, you're one of the founders in the company - it doesn't mean you know anything though =)
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by TheChadderChad on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:40AM (#25775200)
I know its kind of informal but do you have any current remote internship opportunities?
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by ginko on Thursday January 14, 2021 @05:42AM (#25774807)
I'd rather work with the 'engineer' than the 'hacker'.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by beagle3 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @07:00AM (#25775364)
I've worked with quite a few people who had "15 years of experience" which would be better described as "one year of experience practiced 15 times".

The main thing that such an internship-apprenticeship system guarantees is that the newer generation is well-versed in the ways of the old generation, and will likely have a similar record.

In a conservative industry, such as civil engineers building bridges, roads and buildings, and electrical engineers building high-voltage electrical distribution systems, this is what you want -- those industries have converged on good safety records. You want a few people who innovate, but otherwise much prefer to delay the future by 10-20 years than to the potential risks of bringing it sooner.

If the same was prevalent in software, we'd likely still be coding in COBOL on IBM mainframes.

Tesla is a very interesting case study - actually managing to bring the future sooner (with relatively small accumulated damage so far) in a field where being conservative is considered a virtue.

If you'd rather work with the apprenticed person, this model still exists in banks, who are willing to pay big bucks to maintain their cobol backends.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by ginko on Thursday January 14, 2021 @07:25AM (#25775545)
I didn't refer to the apprenticeship model. I referred to the bullshitting 'hacker' type referring to themselves as a ninja and acting like the work he's doing is beneath them. I wouldn't want to work with that guy.

And it taking 5 years of work experience for you to call yourself an experienced engineer does not mean we'd be stuck with COBOL. It usually takes that long where I work and it's not a bank. You're very likely to use our products right now.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by mike_k on Thursday January 14, 2021 @04:59PM (#25783254)
In Ukraine, however, the reality is that most of the engineers are employed as PE (private entrepreneurs) with some additional things included, like a decent insurance. And the overall tax for this scheme is just 5% so far. No other benefits or bonuses usually. So, NET almost always equals GROSS here. In absolute numbers it is something like USD 25K - 70K per year for junior - senior/TL range.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by Jommi on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:22AM (#25772443)
That's still insanely low. With all these people reporting low salaries in constantly thinking where on earth are you when a European startup is hiring talent :D
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by benhurmarcel on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:04AM (#25774934)
You can play with the numbers here [1] for France. You're right that beginners can be around 30k€ before taxes (although that's a little low), which gives less than 2000€/month after taxes.

[1] https://mon-entreprise.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-net

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by imtringued on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:22AM (#25776547)
I am honestly surprised. Even a bottom of the barrel public entry level job with worse compensation than private industry pays at least 2k€ (after taxes) here and that's in a place where you can get an apartment for 500€ per month.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by eecks on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:15AM (#25776463)
What is a C school?
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by KronisLV on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:28AM (#25773274)
Agreed, my particular situation might be caused by the fact that i initially started working at my present company before finishing my bachelor's and am currently working on finishing my master's. Since the initial salary i was hired with was even lower, it has never quite caught up - job hopping might address that.

But even so, the average net salary in this country is even lower than that (overall, not for software developers) and i don't have kids or a car to take care of, hence others could also have those expenses to consider.

Thus, factoring those in, it might indeed take a substantial amount of time to create any savings. For example, i presently have 25k€ in my bank account, though it has taken about 4 years to get there.

That's not to say that people in US or other places also don't have similar factors to deal with, like healthcare costs or student loans.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by gerlv on Thursday January 14, 2021 @03:01AM (#25773496)
I was in the same position when I started working at the first company.

They just continued to pay the same salary after I graduated.

Until you reach senior level, the best strategy for maximising salary is to switch to better paying jobs every ~2 years.

Also, I assume you are from Latvia as you have LV in your username - 1k is waaay to low. I have friends making 3.5k eur a month. You can find mid level positions that pay more than 2k/m

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by KronisLV on Thursday January 14, 2021 @11:13AM (#25778113)
Yep, that's the plan!

There is also something to be said about working for different companies and experiencing different approaches to development, different tools, tech stacks and all of the other stuff you might not see if you stick at one place for a long time.

Though that's more of an auxiliary reason for switching jobs, whereas OP was talking about finances in particular.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by krageon on Thursday January 14, 2021 @07:21AM (#25775522)
If Ukraine legitimately has an average net salary of 2k for a SWE it's better than the actually good parts of the EU. I really, really doubt that this is true.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by chupy on Friday January 15, 2021 @04:04AM (#25788597)
It's the same or even more in Romania (depending on the parts of the country), I do not know why everyone is surprised about it. There are a lot of benefits there that SWE (and IT in general get) - less taxes if you have a CS degree or you can open a company or be self employed and pay next to nothing in taxes. Since there is an increase demand and not enough supply salaries keep rising. In the end you might get a better deal regarding COL if you quit your western European salaried job and move to eastern Europe.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by jonp888 on Friday January 15, 2021 @07:48AM (#25790319)
Ukraine has special tax laws for Software Developers - even if they are working full time on-site for a single company, they can register themselves as freelancers and pay virtually no income tax.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by throwaway894345 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:07AM (#25772718)
I considered moving to France for a few years (from the US), but I was shocked to find it would be a 40% pay cut, even after factoring in all of the healthcare and other expenses we Americans enjoy. And the cost of living is a fair bit higher in France to boot.

Now that companies are cozying up to remote work, I think I’ll jist do more frequent 3 month trips and work in the evenings when I run out of vacation days. Then I can keep my cushy American salary and afford to travel, avoid dealing with VISAs, and France get my cost of living / tourism money without me taking a Frenchman’s job. Seems like a better arrangement all around.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by JCharante on Thursday January 14, 2021 @02:34AM (#25773319)
> I think I’ll jist do more frequent 3 month trips and work in the evenings when I run out of vacation days. Then I can keep my cushy American salary and afford to travel, avoid dealing with VISAs, and France get my cost of living / tourism money without me taking a Frenchman’s job.

Hopefully countries will also warm up to remote work and will create legal avenues for individuals to do remote work while still paying taxes.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by neilparikh on Thursday January 14, 2021 @04:12AM (#25773988)
I've already seen visas like this popping, under "digital nomad" visas, but none of them are in "developed" (ex. G7) countries. I suspect those will be the last to adopt them, since they don't really need the tax/tourism dollars as much. For them, the primary purpose of immigration is to fill jobs in the country, which remote workers don't do.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by jbn on Thursday January 14, 2021 @10:30AM (#25777472)
watch out, if you spend more time in France than in any other country (not just 183 days per year), then you will be considered a fiscal resident of France and therefore taxable on income. in addition, you can't really work remotely and avoid employment taxes, pension contributions, etc... this is only tenable if you spend a minor portion of the time in the country (like any other country, really... states need their taxes obviously).
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by throwaway894345 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @01:05PM (#25779765)
Yeah, I would probably be in the US for at least 9 months out of the year, and I’ll take a closer look at the tax implications when the time approaches.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by burntoutfire on Thursday January 14, 2021 @04:54AM (#25774386)
> avoid dealing with VISAs

VISA is a name of a company. What you mean is just "visa".

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by throwaway894345 on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:51AM (#25776927)
shrugs in autocorrect
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by LordAtlas on Thursday January 14, 2021 @12:44AM (#25772572)
> My net salary is just over 1000€ per month

You would be underpaid in India, where I live, let alone Europe.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by ACS_Solver on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:25AM (#25775085)
> My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev.

You're way underpaid even for Latvia. The national average now is 1100 EUR gross, or 812 EUR net (https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/ekonomika/videja-alga-uz-pap...), but for the IT field the average gross is 1829 EUR, which I believe is around 1300 net. Unless you're somewhere in Latgale where everything is much cheaper, or unless you just graduated last year, your net income should be at least some 20% higher.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by ano88888 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:34PM (#25771545)
That seems really underpaid. I live in south east asia and my net pay is above 4000 Euro (excluding year end bonus which could be 6 to 12 months salary) . There is no social benefits though.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by Aeolun on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:51AM (#25775284)
Why would your year end bonus be equal to your yearly salary? That just seems out of whack.
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by digianarchist on Thursday January 14, 2021 @09:38PM (#25786290)
South East Asia could mean Singapore or Cambodia. Huge difference between those countries
Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by alkonaut on Thursday January 14, 2021 @06:53AM (#25775301)
The ferries to Stockholm is right around the corner. There are 13 software jobs to the dozen, you don't need any paperwork to work there, and €4k per month would be considered "bad" there. If I was in Latvia and spoke english I'd do it in a heartbeat. Even if I couldn't physically move, I'd definitely try to get a remote job from there even if it meant a slighly lower pay than an on-site one.

Obviously, you'd have much higher living costs and the weather would be slighty worse, but lets face it no one lives in Latvia for the weather either!

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by snicker7 on Wednesday January 13, 2021 @10:35PM (#25771551)
> over 1000€ per month

I would like to know what country/city you are based out of. In the US, that wage is well below the poverty line.

Re:Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? by throwawayzRUU6f on Thursday January 14, 2021 @04:53AM (#25774378)
That's not all that uncommon in eastern Europe. I used to earn 5€/hour at my first programming gig in Slovakia. LV in the parent's post likely refers to Latvia.

In fact, even in the first world countries like Italy or Spain it's not uncommon to earn less than 1700€ net.

Here in Finland, 80% of the US GDP/capita btw, some entry level positions are at 2000€ net.