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Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by ThrowawayR2 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:13AM (#25697398)
Many liberals, like myself, are appalled by deplatforming as well and are rethinking our support for the modern left. It is an peculiar era indeed where championing freedom of speech, a core part of the Enlightenment philosophy that gave birth to liberalism, is condemned as being right wing.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by tehjoker on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:35AM (#25697605)
As a leftist, I am torn as the President did just incite a coup attempt, but this is a decisive demonstration that mega-corporations can just discipline the speech of the president (really the enemies of the DNC currently, though that will change to Rs in future elections). I think they will exploit these powers to a far greater extent going forward. There is nothing to celebrate here.

Trump's base of support is insane, but somewhat independent of control by Washington (versus the Democratic party electorate which loyally votes for the chosen leader). The establishment is finally asserting its power to lay down the law. Unfortunately, the country is spinning out of control for reasons they can't or won't manage so this will only be a band-aid though it's gonna hurt for us.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by rualca on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:58AM (#25697788)
> (...) but this is a decisive demonstration that mega-corporations can just discipline the speech of the president

It really isn't. Trump unilaterally desired to use a private service as his main medium of mass communication, while he also unilaterally decided to not only shun his standard and traditional media of mass communication.

If he wanted it, he had at his disposal all media in the whole world to address the public.

But somehow he chose to use a free service provided by a single and very specific private company which also has a very public and clear list of service terms and conditions.

To make matters worse, in spite of his individual choice of using the private company's service as his exclusive medium of mass communication, somehow he also threatened the company with judicial and criminal persecution if they didn't abused by his very personal and unorthodox choices and preferences, which rendered his continuous use of the service as a major liability.

Thus it's pretty obvious that no, a corporation like Twitter cannot discipline the speech of a US president. What we have seen is a president that, due to his individual lack of judgement and insistence of exclusively using a private service while ignoring every single alternative there is in the world proceeded to violate the service's terms and conditions, thus resulting in the service being terminated.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by tehjoker on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:53AM (#25698122)
It's not just one service, we're seeing Twitter and Facebook and now a mail service too. It's really a large fraction of the services he uses coordinating to shut him out for better or worse.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by rualca on Saturday January 09, 2021 @11:33AM (#25701730)
> It's not just one service, we're seeing Twitter and Facebook and now a mail service too.

I haven't seen any reference regarding any email service, and to me that sounds something between unbelievable and an absurd excuse in light of the criticism of Hillary Clinton's use of a private email service.

And moreover doesn't the white house operate their official email service?

Regarding Facebook, all I've seen is a notice that an official page that wasn't used at all was suspended for a week. Does a temporary suspension of an account that's not used count as manipulating speech?

I understand the need to grasp as straws to find any excuse for outrage, but you have to do far better than that.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by brigandish on Sunday January 10, 2021 @03:41AM (#25712412)
> I haven't seen any reference regarding any email service

It was in a former title of this page, and if you'd followed the link and read the tweet you'd see it was about a service called Campaign Monitor:

> Email Marketing | Email Software | Campaign Monitor

That's the strap line for their website. Like many here, I often read the comments, sometimes without reading the linked site, but when commenting it does help to follow the link first.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by ulucs on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:56AM (#25697763)
Calling that a coup is pretty insensitive towards people who have actually been through coups, especially since it's usually the US establishment govenments funding and protecting the perpetrators.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by nitrogen on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:00AM (#25698167)
Calling that a coup is pretty insensitive towards people who have actually been through coups

With the utmost sympathy for those who have experienced coups and aware of the crap "enlightened" governments pull around the world...

I do want to say that gatekeeping and shaming of the form "using [word X] is insensitive to the people of real [word X]" is one of the trends that is amplifying division in the US. There's probably a better way we can acknowledge worse problems without inadvertently damaging discourse.

That said... an attempted coup can take many forms.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by ulucs on Saturday January 09, 2021 @07:39AM (#25699876)
Eh, you're speaking from a position of privilege that I can't comprehend. But I can assure you I'm not being offended theoretically for someone else's sake.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by tehjoker on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:51AM (#25698115)
It wasn't successful or nearly successful, but I saw some potential for creating a drawn out process that could create the space for more support for them (but they failed). I am well aware of the hideous things the US does around the world and organize to try to stop further interventions.

This was not on the same level, but I don't think it's helpful to deny that the objective of these guys was to overturn the election and they had institutional support from the President, legislators, and it appears the Capitol Police. Off duty cops and military were in the crowd. It just wasn't sufficient or well enough planned.

In my opinion, what we witnessed is the farce part of the classic quote: "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce."

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by fra on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:15AM (#25698262)
to-may-to to-mah-to. The president incited a mob to attack congress. Pipe bombs were planted, law enforcement agents were injured and killed, the aim was to disrupt a legitimate election.

Was it clumsy? Yes. Doomed to failure? Absolutely. But make no mistake, had the crowd encountered some of the members of congress they dislike it would have ended much more poorly.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to call it an uncoordinated, ham-fisted attempt at a coup.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by rswail on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:39AM (#25712867)
Trump incited sedition and insurrection, leading to an attempt by the mob to take over the seat of US government, with members of that mob stating publicly that they had every intention to take prisoners and execute the two individuals next in line to the Presidency.

How is that not an attempted coup d'etat?

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by Larrikin on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:22AM (#25697491)
Your post history has a lot of defenses of conservative views but you call out that you are a liberal to try to bolster your conservative points. What liberal views do you believe in?
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by Veen on Saturday January 09, 2021 @04:20AM (#25698863)
Liberals and even traditional leftists seem conservative (or fascist) to modern progressives, who mistakenly think of themselves as liberal.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by simonh on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:38AM (#25697630)
Liberalism and left wing aren’t the same thing, it’s not conservatism either.

Take Milton Friedman for example. Right wing right? No, liberal. He believed in free markets and the power of free enterprise, but he also believed unions were important as an expression of individual freedom of association. He even advocated a negative income tax for low earners so he was a redistributionist.

I still think that would be far better than a basic income, but I digress.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by kortilla on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:00AM (#25697804)
A big chunk of the Democrat party abandoned liberalism (I.e. against globalism, free speech, etc). So you end up in scenarios where “liberals” aren’t really Liberal and call the Liberal people right-wing or centrist.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by ThrowawayR2 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:23AM (#25697503)
Here's a convenient primer for my beliefs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by Larrikin on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:34AM (#25698013)
Thanks for the specifics. Your post history and that generic wikipedia article help show your actual views
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by ThrowawayR2 on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:24PM (#25702260)
A flippant response is all that a bad faith question merits. It may surprise you but I would encourage people to read my post history as well, all of it. Anybody not hopelessly mired in today's hyperpartisanship will see that I am criticizing the left from a liberal perspective.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by voidhorse on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:26AM (#25697530)
Sure, I think it's totally fine to be appalled by deplatforming. I do think people should have a voice, I also think it's the right of platform owners to decide what terms of service they set and what discourse they consider ok. The point is not to say deplatforming should be ok in all and any cases, the point is to highlight the hypocrisy, or perhaps abandonment of so-called core/staunchly held beliefs, that emerges once those beliefs are suddenly at odds with maintaining power.

edit: to put it another way, it unveils that one of the identifying principles of the ideology is not a principle but a convention, upheld so long as its convenient.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by drak0n1c on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:48AM (#25698093)
Yes, corporations can and should be criticized for legal actions that are within their right (and oftentimes should stay within their right). Whether that is pollution, poor employment practices, or applying censorship unevenly.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by enumjorge on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:29AM (#25697552)
As a champion of freedom of speech, you must be aware that it does not protect speech that would likely incite something like a riot, which is exactly what happened this week.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by beerandt on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:05AM (#25697835)
Incitement of violence is an incredibly high legal bar.

Hypotheticals, don't count. Hints don't count. Dogwhistles don't count. Impassioned political speech doesn't count.

The fire in a theatre quote that everyone seems to know is even from an overturned case. (Schenk v US)

The Brandenburg case that overturned Schenk held:

If a threat is not immediate

OR

If it's non-specific/ non-literal

Then it's not criminal incitement, because it's protected free speech.

Interpretations of "what Trump meant" don't count, even if you believe with all your heart that he meant something other than the literal words spoken.

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by Krollifi on Saturday January 09, 2021 @05:30AM (#25699222)
These platforms are really just websites. If you don't like them, you are free to make your own website. If you create a website would you really want the government to interfere with it?
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by esoterica on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:56AM (#25697762)
Twitter has the freedom of speech/association right to ban whomever they want from posting on their privately owned servers. Freedom of speech and association cuts both ways, and your freedom of speech rights do not extend to other people's property without their permission.
Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by barbacoa on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:11AM (#25697864)
Free speech rules are more complicated than that. [0] When a person or company owns a "public square" that is open to the general public under some circumstances they can become defacto state actors and lose their right to discriminate what people are allowed to say on their property.

We have never seen that be applied to the internet but in principle twitter is very much the modern day town square of discourse.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by caseysoftware on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:19AM (#25697912)
And what's interesting is that Trump's Twitter account specifically was declared a "public square" when he was forced to unblock users in 2018. Since that's the case (as ruled), blocking EVERYONE from accessing that account seems like a larger violation.

The suit argued that Trump blocked the plaintiffs after they criticized the president, which constituted "viewpoint discrimination.” Being that the President’s Twitter, @RealDonaldTrump, is a public forum, that would be in violation of their First Amendment rights to free speech. U.S. District Judge Naomi Reice Buchwald in Manhattan agreed with the plaintiffs.

Ref: https://mashable.com/article/trump-unblocks-twitter-accounts...

Re:Campaign Monitor has suspended President Trump by rswail on Sunday January 10, 2021 @04:43AM (#25712892)
The argument that @realDonaldTrump was viewpoint discrimination is because that twitter account was being used as a defacto mouthpiece of the US government. As such, people engaging with it are entitled to 1A protection.

That doesn't mean that Donald Trump is entitled, either as an individual, or as POTUS, to have a Twitter account.