News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by bananabiscuit on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:50PM (#25692617)
We don’t have to imagine. #BLM incited many riots which killed many people, what action did Twitter take there?
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by mrkurt on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:54PM (#25692694)
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by leereeves on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:58PM (#25693882)
That's not BLM's account. This is:

https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter

For proof that's official, see https://blacklivesmatter.com/statement-from-black-lives-matt...

It's not suspended.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by fortran77 on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:59PM (#25695883)
Here's a better example. Spike Lee was _never_ banned, even though he sent an angry mob to an innocent person's house where people who happened to share a name with someone in the news lived.

Spike Lee settled:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/therootdc/post/spike-le...

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/spike-lee-sued-zimmerman_n_42...

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by rvz on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:52PM (#25696623)
From [0]

So they still want to defund the police. I don't think even the next administration would agree with demand #6.

[0] https://twitter.com/Blklivesmatter/status/134773793490928845...

[dead]
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by scrollaway on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:45PM (#25694960)
It's probably worth remembering that your president was the first one to choose to use Twitter as his primary medium of communication with citizens, rather than the long established tradition of white house communications which can be released via whitehouse.gov.

As with pretty much every other bit of idiocy you can find related to trump, he has brought this on himself. It's pretty crazy it even took this long.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by cthalupa on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:40PM (#25694888)
Copy and pasting this in multiple threads doesn't make it any more true.
[dead]
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by scrollaway on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:51PM (#25695072)
At some point you might be willing to consider you're the indoctrinated/brainwashed one. You said it yourself, you see everything around you repeat what you believe is false 24/7.

Reality is hard. It's easier out here in europe, we've been lucky enough not to suffer too much from the awful american media diet. We've mostly seen this happen to you all from the outside.

There's a lot of propaganda in your country. I sympathize with you, truly; it's difficult to tell what's real and what isn't when you've been gaslit for years. It's especially more difficult when you think that accepting reality means giving up your ideas and opinions on eg. personal freedom (it doesn't). But getting out of there is going to be your fight.

Saw this thread this morning; if there's hope for that guy, maybe there's hope for you. https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/kt9ues/update_my_husb...

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by studius on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:06PM (#25695962)
> Reality is hard. It's easier out here in europe, we've been lucky enough not to suffer too much from the awful american media diet.

I live in the U.S. and stay away from the media. I recommend it. I used to think it was important to stay abreast of all of the comings and goings, but that was B.S. It's a stressful waste of time for me. I don't really get into sports either.

> There's a lot of propaganda in your country. I sympathize with you, truly; it's difficult to tell what's real and what isn't when you've been gaslit for years.

What you say is true about it being difficult to tell what is real. But, the only people that I spoken with that know what it's like in America are those that have lived here recently for a year or more, and preferably those that have moved around some. It's a large country, with different cultures; I don't even know them all. A lot of it is annoying (the parts of the country where people act really fake and the parts where people seem nice but are passive aggressive isolating backstabbers), and a lot more of it is honest, loud, quiet, funny, and cool.

I sometimes act as if I understand the people of this or that country, because I work with people of different countries each day at work, so I know I act the same way; I don't really know what it's like either.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by nitrogen on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:24AM (#25697513)
At some point you might be willing to consider you're the indoctrinated/brainwashed one.

After living in both a conservative state and a liberal coastal area for years, I've realized that every radically different culture probably looks like brainwashing to other radically different cultures. What we might be seeing is what happens when those cultures compete for the same space.

Much like living organisms, both cultures/memeplexes produce their versions of antibodies and immunities.

Both living memeplexes have developed a sense of "self" vs "defective self"/"harmful other" vs "harmless other", just like an immune system. Both "believe" themselves to be the "true" organism, and that the other is defective. Both have diverged enough that mutual symbiosis is no longer working. Both claim the same space as their own.

Both have failed to process the metaphorical signaling molecules of the other. Driven by their respective fitness functions, both are evolving and diverging.

Ultimately, the two organisms will have to relearn how to communicate and merge back into a symbiotic whole, establish a clear boundary between the two, or failing those, each will continue to seek to destroy the other until perhaps nothing is left of either.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by bra-ket on Saturday January 09, 2021 @12:32AM (#25697580)
That's all swell and dandy until one of these cultures controls the media and government and shuts down the other via every means possible, from non-stop propaganda and censorship to witch hunts and persecutions on ideological grounds. We are in '1984'.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by nitrogen on Saturday January 09, 2021 @01:26AM (#25697958)
I think the median case is exaggerated on both sides. But both sides are gradually radicalizing. One probably doesn't want to bump into extremists from either side. Both are overhyping their respective persecution complexes. Both are using extreme events and individuals to try to justify extreme behavior in non-extreme median cases. When neither events nor individuals are mentioned, many of the complaints people raise can be applied to either side.

I do agree that the left lacks self-awareness of how much it behaves just like a religion -- I moved away from my religious home state to try to get away from dogma, and just found another breed of it. The right lacks self-awareness of how much influence it still has.

Both lack mutual awareness of how to relate to one another, and that's something we need to work at from all sides. Neither side has 100% of the "truth", whatever that might be.

I don't really know what a solution looks like, but I do know that it has to start somewhere, maybe with believing that an amicable solution is even possible. We've spent a lot of time airing grievances. What do we want to happen next? Would you (and others reading) be willing to help brainstorm some ideas to try to bridge the divide?

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by cthalupa on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:51PM (#25695071)
Trump has done quite enough to demonize himself while inciting insurrection and calling for violence.

Not that's anything new - Trump has long called for his supporters to be violent towards those he disagrees with, even going so far as to offer to pay their legal fees.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by jiojfdsal3 on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:46PM (#25693647)
Strangely enough, Twitter's former CEO Dick Costolo said this in October:

"Me-first capitalists who think you can separate society from business are going to be the first people lined up against the wall and shot in the revolution. I'll happily provide video commentary."

@dickc was never suspended. He still has his account.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by kennywinker on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:21PM (#25694500)
That really doesn’t feel like inciting or calling for riots or violence to me. Maybe if @dickc had a large and heavily armed following there’d be more subtext to read between the lines... (i.e. “and we should start this riot now”)
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by spiritplumber on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:59PM (#25695881)
I thought it was going to be the Sirius Cybernetic Corporation.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by tenebrisalietum on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:56PM (#25692733)
It is accurate to say BLM incited riots? I'll counter with this: BLM organized protests which were peaceful and then bad actors incited riots. What happened on the Capitol was not peaceful from the outset--people came up, climbed the wall, broke through the entryway, took a podium, etc.--they started it.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by vonseel on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:37PM (#25693480)
Couldn’t you just as accurately say they organized peacefully at the Capitol and THEN made it non-peaceful by doing those things?
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by tom-_- on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:15PM (#25694356)
It's probably more accurate to say that a some of the protesters were prepared to commit acts of violence towards those in the Capitol building, some had no interest in violence, and others had no explicit plans but were caught up by mob mentality.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by loopz on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:24PM (#25695537)
The real differences are the lies and craziness.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by kabdib on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:44PM (#25694938)
Some of the participants were carrying things like nylon handcuffs, bombs (or bomb making materials?) and molotov cocktails. This preparation proves that peaceful protest was never the core intent.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by nwienert on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:10PM (#25695392)
The same could be said for the previous riots.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by newacct583 on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:34PM (#25694780)
No, because they were doing things the president told them to! He scheduled the rally to directly coincide with congress's certification session. He didn't tell them to break into the Capitol, but he told them to march there. He didn't tell them to attack congress, but he told them they were in session trying to steal his election.

I don't understand why people keep arguing that the incitement thing is blurry. It's not. Any other speaker at that rally who had said the same things would be trivially charged. This was a crime, in ways that BLM organizing a march isn't. (Maybe there are some other BLM-related actions where people called out a target like this, it was a big movement. I'm not aware of one though.)

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by wombatmobile on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:41PM (#25695713)
> I don't understand why people keep arguing that the incitement thing is blurry.

What you are really saying is that you don't think it is blurry.

The reason people argue that it is blurry is because they want to advance the interests of that side. So they argue whatever they can, including the blur, which might give them a 50-50 chance of prevailing in amongst the confusion.

It's how people argue when they can't prevail in an argument based on principle, logic, or literality.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by tartoran on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:31PM (#25695606)
> I don't understand why people keep arguing that the incitement thing is blurry.

It’s denial and it’s obvious that they want to believe something else with all their might. If Trump said it literally go do the deed there would be some who would argue that’s not true. Strategy amongst trolls is to wear us down a la gaslighting but I don’t understand what’s the long term goal, if there is any.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:32PM (#25695618)
"I don't understand why people keep arguing that the incitement thing is blurry."

Because it is. I dislike Trump as much as the next guy, but he didn't say anything new in that speech ( frankly, neither did anyone that preceded him ). What he did, however, is consistently rile up his base. This time he overshot. And he did not even overshot with words. Tons of worse things are said on many political meetings if you ever been to one. He overshot with the timing and a sense of desperation. And the retard got burned playing with fire.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by dylan604 on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:47PM (#25696572)
I'd be willing to say that they met at the White House with the intention of a peaceful rally/protest. However, that rally is where the match lit the fuse. They were sent to the Capitol to cause mayhem. Two different but related events to consider. If there was to be an organized event at the Capitol, things would have been prepared differently. However, the Capitol was already undergoing preparations for the Inauguration. I seriously doubt the people in charge of those plans would have agreed to a rally at the Capitol.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by deeviant on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:48PM (#25693674)
No.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by perl4ever on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:38PM (#25694854)
I think the debating of what percentage of demonstrations were violent, or whether the violent people were provocateurs, is a red herring. I don't honestly know, for any of them, and I think people get trapped into arguing stuff they don't know.

The outrage is that, regardless of how many people were violent at or around the protests for racial justice, the ones who weren't violent were brutalized on many occasions. Lots of people, reporters and ordinary people, experienced it and documented it. And at the attack on the Capitol, no matter how many people were peaceful, the authorities gave the violent people strikingly more free rein.

Simply by arguing the statistics, I think you get derailed from what matters, which is how both sides are not equal.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:35PM (#25695652)
Here we are mostly in agreement. On the flip side, BLM got much more favorable treatment from media, even if they did not get that treatment from cops.

You are right. Things are not equal. I would love for the same standard to be applied to everyone.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by lightgreen on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:49PM (#25693704)
Care to explain?
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by deeviant on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:59PM (#25693921)
Not really. It's so obvious that the only person that would likely disagree with me is person that will likely disagree with reality, but here I go anyways.

Trump called for insurrection. He didn't call for a protest. So did Trump Jr. So Did Giuliani. It's a matter of public record.

Also the people, and please respect that I single out this comment as completely tangential to the original point, that try to make the "Sure Trump supporters rioted, but BLM!" argument never seem to take the following into account:

BLM is fighting against a system that arbitrarily tortures and executes them, often with impunity. While The Trump supporters are literally fighting to end American democracy.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by jonnyone on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:40PM (#25694883)
Where in his speech did he specifically call for insurrection? Quote it. You can blame him for riling people up all you want, but he never instructed anybody to break into the capitol or interfere with the electoral vote or anything of that nature. People who were there even say that they were breaking into the Capitol while Trump was still speaking.

So tired of people having these absolutely vile attitudes (accusing the person you're responding to of being "likely to disagree with reality") while never presenting any facts.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by edoceo on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:20PM (#25695498)
Folks take the part where T stated at the in-person event (IIRC) to "go wild".

So, he didn't say "do an insurrection" he said those other - on the margin things (are those the things called dog whistles?) like "go wild" and "we will never back down" and the like.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by deeviant on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:30PM (#25695603)
They are playing the "Yes judge, he said the man would make an Excellent Cadaver, but he only meant that he hoped the man lives out his natural life in good health and turns into a good looking corpse in a completely natural sense" game.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by alentist on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:20PM (#25696146)
> But they’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop. They’re not. This is a movement. I’m telling you. They’re not going to stop, and everyone, beware. Because they’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop before election day in November, and they are not going to stop after election day. And everyone should take note of that on both levels. That they’re not going to let up. And they should not, and we should not.

Vice-president-elect Kamala Harris, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XxLR2r5oPg

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by jp_nc on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:53PM (#25695119)
Rudy said the phrase “trial by combat”
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by deeviant on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:00PM (#25695249)
There is no point, the dude is lost to reality.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by jonnyone on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:04PM (#25695304)
So in other words, you cannot prove the thing you said. I suppose you are right, I am lost to reality.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by SantalBlush on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:49PM (#25696593)
The point of keeping one's language in the gray area is to avoid culpability. It's no different from when a boss wants their employee to do something unethical/illegal; they don't come out and ask for it explicitly. That isn't how real life usually works.

When people say Trump incited an insurrection, they are bearing this in mind. All but the most obtuse of people understand this.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by jonnyone on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:00PM (#25695229)
Yes, he did. And you could rightfully point to that as incitement of violence. However, that is not Trump calling for insurrection.

Edit: I've been hit with the dreaded "You're posting too fast" block, meaning I cannot respond anymore. Why? Because I asked somebody who said that Trump was on public record calling for insurrection to prove it with a quote.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by jp_nc on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:09PM (#25695379)
So in the absence of explicit instruction - go to the Capitol, break through the barricade, enter the chamber - there is no responsibility? What if a leader uses phrases like “we need to fight and take back our country and you know what needs to be done”? I’d hope there is a higher standard for president of the United States
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by alentist on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:18PM (#25696116)
> But they’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop. They’re not. This is a movement. I’m telling you. They’re not going to stop, and everyone, beware. Because they’re not going to stop. They’re not going to stop before election day in November, and they are not going to stop after election day. And everyone should take note of that on both levels. That they’re not going to let up. And they should not, and we should not.

Vice-president-elect Kamala Harris, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XxLR2r5oPg

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by deeviant on Saturday January 09, 2021 @02:35PM (#25703784)
Whataboutism is perhaps the most ignorant defense used by Trump supporters.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by alentist on Saturday January 09, 2021 @07:37PM (#25706850)
This is not a defense of anything. That's something you projected onto the comment on your own.

The comment is simply pointing out the hypocrisy and double standard that pervades this discussion.

If pointing this out makes you angry, that's not an issue with the comment, but an issue with your ability to handle information that undermines your constructed narrative.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by deeviant on Sunday January 10, 2021 @07:39PM (#25722444)
The irony of a Trump supporter claiming projection and hypocrisy. These are literally the founding principles of Trumpism.

And yes, your comment was clear example of whataboutism.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by manfredo on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:03PM (#25695291)
Trump repeatedly encouraged protestors to stay peaceful leading up to the riot:

> Jan 6th, 2:38 PM: Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!

> 3:13PM I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!

From: https://www.thetrumparchive.com/

Can you link to where Trump called for insurrection? If that's true, that would certainly be significant. He's certainty spread unsubstantiated claims of election fraud, and it culminated in a riot. But saying that someone called for an insurrection is a very specific and very serious claim, and one that is best supported with references.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by belorn on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:36PM (#25694827)
The order of events has troubled me since the beginning.

People came to a protest. Trump made a speech on the stage. People got incited to rush the building by what was said.

But then we the events that say that people constructed bombs at home and organized an attack far in advance, and traveled to the protest in order to rush the building.

The odd thing is that I heard similar narratives about BLM riots. In some it was said that BLM organized protests which were peaceful, but which later turned into riots. Other say that the rioters was people from outside that had planned the rioting in advanced and traveled to the protests.

Are all four versions true, or only a subset?

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:37PM (#25695674)
Bogaloo group has been mentioned before. At this point, I am certain that there are groups in US keen on using existing tensions for their goals.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by xapata on Friday January 08, 2021 @08:48PM (#25695032)
All statements are true, except for where they're mutually exclusive:

For both the Trumpist Insurrection and the BLM protests, some people were intending a peaceful march, some were intending a riot, and some were even intending or hoping for violence.

However, where the Trumpist Insurrection differs was the (small?) portion that intended a "revolution," to quote one Elisabeth from Knoxville. The most extreme form of BLM seemed to be the CHOP, which may have wished for an autonomous zone, but not a revolution.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Friday January 08, 2021 @09:25PM (#25695553)
"BLM organized protests which were peaceful and then bad actors incited riots."

Interesting line of argument. How is it different from capitol climb? The protest in DC were mostly peaceful until after Trump ( and friends ) speech. It is just some bad actors, who incited riots.

"What happened on the Capitol was not peaceful from the outset--people came up, climbed the wall, broke through the entryway, took a podium, etc.--they started it."

This is where we may disagree. Initially, it was just a gathering. The wall climbing and all that jazz happened after speeches were over. Timeline is important.

Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by igetspam on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:56PM (#25692734)
Source? Politifact rates that False.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sixothree on Friday January 08, 2021 @06:55PM (#25692714)
I'm not sure this even deserves a follow up question. But go ahead and show some specifics.
[dead]
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by oneeyedpigeon on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:36PM (#25693460)
Those are — I think, exclusively — examples of either unrelated or anti-blm perpetrators.
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by sixothree on Friday January 08, 2021 @07:21PM (#25693174)
That doesn't exactly support the claim. I don't understand your point here? Do you even remember the point being made?
Re:Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump by dang on Friday January 08, 2021 @10:04PM (#25695933)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25692481.