News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:05AM (#25581293)
Because a private company has no right to tell me what to do with the hardware and software I legally bought from them.

They can deny my warranty and ban my account and device-ID on their cloud services for breaking their EULA, fine, but they have no right to come into my life and politely (the mafia "stop what you're doing or else" kind of politely) tell me what I can't do with the device I legally own, in my spare time.

If I want to root my smart device which I legally own to run Doom on it, that should be completely legal. If the mods that allow me to run Doom on it could also be used by others to run pirated content is another matter that should not be my problem, but the device manufacturer's to patch and implement better security on their hardware and software and only go after those who are proven to be involved in piracy, not after the tool makers.

If a burglar uses a B0sch powertool to break into my house, should I go after B0sch for making tools that allow criminals to engage in illegal activities?

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by Andrex on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:11AM (#25581348)
Circumventing the DMCA is against the law and can get you prosecuted, for better or worse. It's more serious than just "not following the EULA."

This is why the "right to repair" is important to fight for -- by default, Americans don't have such protections.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by scoutt on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:19AM (#25581391)
DMCA only applies to the United States. It practically has no meaning elsewhere (I don't know the modder nationality, but the modder claims he/she has a PAL Nintendo console (european version)).
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zinekeller on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:28AM (#25581464)
While the nationality of the user is definitely questionable, there is no longer such a thing as a PAL or NTSC Switch, only first (easily exploitable) and second (much harder to exploit, has a longer battery life) generation Switches (and the Lite). In this case, my personal reading on this is that an American that tries to invoke "I do not violate DMCA because I bought this at another country", which is laughable if you are still in USA. Note that I despise DMCA as much as you are, but if you are in USA it still exists.

Edit: America to USA. However, Americans (as in people from the US) should note that there are similar provisions throughout Americas (especially Mexico and Brazil).

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by scoutt on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:47AM (#25581603)
Sorry. With nationality I meant where the modder is located. The modder talks about an "european 3ds"[1]. I assumed the person was located in Europe (there is a related document in that thread called "belgian waffle").

The DMCA will still have effect for example, if the modder is in Germany and hosts their cracks on Github. A DMCA takedown can be sent to Github to take down the crack. The modder should be untouchable by American authorities (directly).

If the crack is hosted in a (for example) Swedish server, then the DMCA is no valid (only at the server owner discretion).

DMCA doesn't forbid you to crack the console, but to release the tools to circumvent a security measure. You can brag all what you want on internet about a crack you've made, but the moment you publish even a clue on how to crack something, a DMCA can be sent to either put down the info from a website or to make you to desist (only if either you and/or the server are located, or have business, in the United States).

[1] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpzhxXkXEAIuDYz?format=png&name=...

Edit: modder is a 26 years old male living in Belgium (https://twitter.com/forestillusion/status/134123063191354163...)

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zinekeller on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:10AM (#25581805)
Good points, this would be out-of-scope of DMCA. However, I don't know if the modder would not be prosecutable under IP laws (violation of copyright) since interoperability seems non-existent (not building a 3DS clone or emulator) and Nintendo has done their due diligence on marketing it as a limited game console, not a general-purpose computer.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by mhitza on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:42AM (#25582586)
Just dropping by here with no context (just browsing comments). Buy I want to point out another fact about EU regulations. It is completely legal to reverse engineer software here.

Might apply, might not apply here. IANAL and I have not read the article :)

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zinekeller on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @12:38PM (#25583755)
I understand it is legal, but I also understand that it has restrictions: mainly that it is legal only if the reason to reverse engineer something it must be on an interoperability or essential maintenance basis. I am not sure if "modding" beyond bug-fixing is legal in this situation (considering the time period).
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by rascul on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:53AM (#25581652)
Just want to point out that it only exists in the United States of America, not the rest of the Americas.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zinekeller on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:06AM (#25581761)
Good point, edited America to USA. However, Americans (as in people from the US) should note that there are similar provisions throughout Americas (especially Mexico and Brazil).
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by wyldfire on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:20AM (#25582954)
It appears that he lives in the EU (Belgium).
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by gambiting on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:20AM (#25581400)
Well, fortunately not everyone lives in the United States. DMCA is not a thing and EULAs fortunately are mostly meaningless, or at the very least breaking them is not a crime.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:43AM (#25581579)
Even if it's totally legal in your country, there is at least some precedent of the US arresting visitors for breaking the DMCA. It seems unlikely to happen again, but I could definitely see it being used if some intelligence agency thought you could help them.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:44AM (#25583185)
Jurisdictional overreach in support of private company's intellectual property seems pretty normal for USA.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by yjftsjthsd-h on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:09AM (#25582849)
> Circumventing the DMCA is against the law and can get you prosecuted, for better or worse. It's more serious than just "not following the EULA."

Then it's a government problem and Nintendo is playing vigilante, which isn't better.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by MikeUt on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:24AM (#25581429)
That part of the law was written by and for corporations.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by CyberRabbi on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:29AM (#25581468)
I fully support the right to repair. I am a tinkerer myself. After looking into the details of a few of these cases I don’t believe Nintendo is in the wrong. A lot of these so-called hackers who have been targeted by Nintendo do this stuff in bad faith. They end up using the result of their efforts to build businesses based on pirating Nintendo content.

Once they get caught they will nearly always lie through their teeth about their illegal business activities and claim they are innocent open-source hackers or whatever. It’s really deceptive and more offensive to me as someone who legitimately likes to tinker. For the most part I disagree with the DMCA anti-circumvention law but in nearly every case I’ve seen the people being targeted were doing much more than just selling mod chips.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by Kaze404 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:51AM (#25582144)
This is completely wrong. Neimod was in fact so against piracy that there's accounts of him banning people from the 3dsdev IRC simply for trying to jump-start the 3ds homebrew scene back then.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:33AM (#25581499)
>hey end up using the result of their efforts to build businesses based on pirating Nintendo content.

Cite?

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by CyberRabbi on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:37AM (#25581535)
The Team Xecuter case comes to mind:

> These defendants lined their pockets by stealing and selling the intellectual property of other video-game developers–even going so far as to make customers pay a licensing fee to play stolen games,

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/two-members-notorious-v...

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:31AM (#25581483)
>Because a private company has no right to tell me what to do with the hardware and software I legally bought from them.

Interestingly, Nintendo's explicit message was not that the hacking was wrong, but that the sharing of the hacking was wrong, because sharing the hack encourages piracy on a larger scale. It's hard to argue with that logic, TBH. And I actually admire their soft touch approach.

My sense is that this is not that big of a deal, to Nintendo or anyone else. The platform, the physicality of "normal" distribution, plus the general inability of people to successfully mod their stuff, all favors Nintendo naturally.

Seems like a tempest in a teapot, and if anything, I don't think it harms Nintendo's reputation at all (modulo sensationalist headlines).

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zucker42 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:05AM (#25581754)
> It's hard to argue with that logic, TBH.

If you can't come up with an argument against that then you're not trying hard enough. The most obvious is that sharing a mod is free speech and ought to be protected as such.

It's also unclear how mods contribute to copyright infringement in any meaningful way. I'm having trouble finding details about exactly what Neimod's mods entailed, but most mods I have experience with require an existing copy of the game.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:47AM (#25583213)
Information products require artificial scarcity to be economically viable.

If freedom of speech gives individuals a license to say anything in any medium, then this means that artificial scarcity is inconsistent with free speech.

If artificial scarcity is immoral, then all information products are immoral.

(Note that as a practical matter I suspect that Nintendo only cares about "hacking" insofar as it undermines sales. I can't see why they would care about people modifying the games or equipment they own. I can totally see why they would care if someone invented an SD card cartridge for the 3DS that allows you to run every game ever written from it. Such a device, if mass produced and sold for profit, is clearly intended for piracy. Moreover, its easy to see how such a device is parasitic on the platform itself, so that if Nintendo didn't do something about it then there won't be a Nintendo.)

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by Drakim on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:02PM (#25587885)
There is a huge difference between the speech of sharing exact copyrighted material, and the free speech of sharing methods of running whatever software you want on some hardware.

If the later is not allowed, this very comment might be illegal, as I'm telling you that such a thing is possible.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zucker42 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @04:59PM (#25586655)
> I can't see why they would care about people modifying the games or equipment they own.

Nintendo has previously sued a company for selling a device which allows people to mod the device they owned. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._N.... Nintendo is notoriously anti-consumer in this regard.

And anyways, restricting mods is unnecessary to encourage the economic viability of video games.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:23PM (#25586916)
That link doesn't work. Okay, I admit I don't know much about the modding community these days, but back in the day it used to be ALL about enabling you to play the files you just downloaded. What do mods do these days? I admit that if someone is selling a mod that lets you, I don't know, change the sprites around in your favorite game, that would not affect N's bottom line and it would be a big problem if they confronted people about something like that.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by shakna on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:34AM (#25582005)
> And I actually admire their soft touch approach.

Interviewing family members, hiring someone to build a schedule of your coming and goings, and so on... Does not seem like a "soft touch" approach to me. To be frank, it's something I would expect of the Yakuza, not a game company.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:48AM (#25583223)
Oh, the Yakuza interviews family members and figures out your schedule? And here I thought they trafficked in drugs and humans, and routinely murdered people. Silly me.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by Talanes on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @12:41PM (#25583789)
And how do you get in position to murder someone?
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by belval on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:20AM (#25582957)
How is it hard to argue with that approach? I get that a lot of people LOVE Nintendo and their products but this is insanely shady. What would be your reaction if Apple hired private firms to stalk iFixit founders? Would it still be "hard to argue"?
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:54AM (#25583287)
Bad analogy. Information products require artificial scarcity. Literally everyone making a living wage on this site benefits from this fact. If you want to follow your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, then fine. But what I see are people who benefit from this fact taking a holier-than-thou attitude toward Nintendo, and I object to the hypocrisy.

iFixit is safe because it doesn't really affect Apple's sales. It may put a slightly downward pressure on Apple Store repair revenue. But iFixit solutions require technical aptitude, time and skill to apply that most people don't have, and wouldn't spend on fixing a laptop even if they had it!

But what if iFixit sold a dohicky that defeats the copy protection on all software written for macOS? Do you think that's okay, and that their right to share that device is free speech?

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by belval on Saturday January 02, 2021 @05:34PM (#25617237)
My argument was more in line with what the modders are doing. If Nintendo wants to DCMA takedown every website distributing their games that were cracked I am perfectly fine with that.

The issue I have is that they target people who figure out how to run and copy cracked game from their device, and not those who are actively distributing them. While it makes perfect sense from their side, the images from the tweet feed do not present a compelling argument that the modders are breaking the law and as such they are intimidating law-abiding citizen which is horrifying.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by stale2002 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @01:22PM (#25584366)
This is about modding. People have a right to mod their own hardware that they legally purchased.

That's all that matters.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by javajosh on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:46PM (#25587160)
>That's all that matters.

No, it isn't. But thank you for illustrating one consequence of "dogmatic belief".

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by stale2002 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:39PM (#25589646)
People have a right to mod their own hardware. Thats the law.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by asutekku on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:07AM (#25581312)
If you’re distributing the software to allow pirated usage the lawyers might disagree with you.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:10AM (#25581339)
That's their job as a company to hire developers to patch the exploits the modders find and use, not to go stalk the modders.

Should Google come after me for rooting my Andorid phone and sideloading apps not on their app store?

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by Andrex on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:15AM (#25581377)
Not comparable. Android explicitly allows third-party software (even if you have to toggle a setting first.)

Jailbreaking falls under a legal gray area, which is debatably covered by the "right to repair" section of the DMCA.

Breaking a console's DRM explicitly to play non-approved software is violating the DMCA and against the law.

As I said, not really comparable.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:19AM (#25581394)
I live in Europe where the DMCA does not apply.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zinekeller on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:49AM (#25582115)
Please look up your laws before commenting. Yes, DMCA, as you have correctly stated, does not apply in the EEA. However, IP infrigement in EEA is dealt with much tougher than the US. Don't believe me? From YouTube v GEMA and the whole youtube-dl debacle to cases in France regarding software copyright infrigement, the authors (in this case, Nintendo) have the collective right to assert copyright in the console software, and often is also the co-author of the software released on their platforms.

As asutekku have stated:

If you’re distributing the software to allow pirated usage the lawyers might disagree with you.

It seems that the US is the leader in IP cases, but that is simply due to the fact that most companies that can act are based there. The reality is that Europe have different IP statures which favors the authors more than others.

TLDR: US IP law deals economic losses, European IP law focuses on moral losses. This means that even with DMCA, Nintendo (and every other author, whether as an individual or company (in the non-corporate sense) or corporate) have rights in Europe that are stronger than in the US.

Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by zinekeller on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:27AM (#25582444)
Genuine question in response to controversial voting pattern: Why? Is there a point here that is wrong specifically? Or you just hate the fact that corporations do have significant power in Europe? Because shooting down the messenger doesn't change the basic fact here.
Re:Nintendo's use of surveillance and private investigators ... by tiagoespinha on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:11AM (#25581346)
...and they should take it up with the law. Not play vigilante.