News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by tomatocracy on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:51PM (#25563661)
Single subscription payment for news along the lines of the Spotify model. I'd happily pay a single subscription which gave me access to ALL the news websites, and divided payment up based on which articles people click on. Do that without tracking me between the different sites and I'm sold.

Pressreader gets close but it only gives you yesterday's print versions (not current online content), it has a few notable gaps which matter to me (the FT, The Times (of London), Bloomberg news among others) and it doesn't really collate different sources for the same story very well. Though I have to say it's great for magazines.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by wussboy on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:07PM (#25563812)
Paying according to which articles people click on has already failed as a model for determining truth and relevancy. We need to think of “one weird trick” that will have the same “stunning” effect but without the incentive to appeal to humanity’s baser instincts.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by nillium on Monday December 28, 2020 @09:10PM (#25565889)
FWIW, we are working on this. Almost all of the issues listed in this thread can be traced back to the way aggregators and social networks end up monetizing (or not monetizing) news. We're trying something a little different: https://blog.nillium.com/were-not-an-aggregator/
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by eitland on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @08:07AM (#25569391)
Tried to join the waiting list but it requires a zip code (and no country) so I guess it is US specific?
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by nillium on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @08:53AM (#25569702)
Apologies -- For now, yes, we are US specific. This requires a lot of individual connections and deals with newsrooms and reporters, so we had to start somewhere.

Hopefully we can expand in the near future

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by wussboy on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:55PM (#25605629)
Can you explain your business model more clearly? Including how you intend to compete with current news outlets, and with the human tendency to not really care about things that should be important to them? The web site was not clear.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by roye on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @01:49AM (#25567412)
how do you compare with substack?
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by nillium on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @08:54AM (#25569719)
Substack can work for reporters who already have a following -- but we are trying to help those in local markets and earlier in their careers.

From a user perspective, we're looking to give a holistic view of what's happening around you, regardless of which trusted journalist is posting.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by mgkimsal on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:41PM (#25564121)
I didn't think the goal was "truth and relevancy" but... just to apportion payment for the services used (reading articles).
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by ip26 on Monday December 28, 2020 @10:59PM (#25566573)
I think the point is while you start with a platform for "news", if you apportion payment for services used, you get clickbait, i.e. something fundamentally different than "news".
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by joe_the_user on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @12:06AM (#25566931)
One alternative is pay directly for total access according to the quality of news source. NYTimes, Washington Post etc just automatically get a lot and go downward.

The aggregator is 100% the judge of quality but start with access to the highest quality sources and go downward. So everything is editorially decided except how many actually subscribe but since it's access to the best quality, it would be a desirable thing to subscribe to.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by zarkov99 on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:08PM (#25564392)
People act differently when they pay for a service rather than get it for free.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by khrbrt on Monday December 28, 2020 @07:16PM (#25565010)
Agreed. This will only make clickbait and sensationalism worse, and starve boring but vital reporting on local government.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by graeme on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:16PM (#25564480)
Apple News is trying this and it doesn’t seem to work too well. The trouble is the best publications can run their own offers and charge much more. FT and Bloomberg in particular tend to be corporate expenses.

Apple news costs $120 a year. Basic digital FT is over $350. Premium digital even more.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by criddell on Monday December 28, 2020 @07:25PM (#25565077)
It seems like news organizations dislike Apple News for the same reason I like it - they don't get access to their reader. I'm sympathetic to the idea that it would help them make their service better for me, but I also know they would abuse that relationship. I'm happy having Apple in the middle.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by graeme on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @08:29AM (#25569554)
Sorry, I should have said “the trouble with OP’s idea”. You wouldn’t get a full business subscription to news orgs for less than $500-$1000 a year, which consumers won’t pay.

A bundle of consumer news might work, but you still get the adverse selection problem that the clients most interested also tend to be the clients interested in standalone, expensive subs. So it’s hard to get NYT, WaPo, times of london, etc

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by oblio on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:20PM (#25563937)
For news? I want an OS and browser integrate single payment system. I don't want to have to give my credit card details to everyone. I want a digital wallet that's an open standard and that's integrated with every form of online payment.

Where I can cut off subscriptions easily and with no hassle, maybe one time payments, etc.

For news, shopping, any kind of subscription (Netflix, AWS, etc.).

I want banking-as-a-service. I already trust my bank with my money, I want them to be the middle man between me and the online payment jungle.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by lefrenchy on Monday December 28, 2020 @10:56PM (#25566556)
Isn’t this what Privacy does?

https://privacy.com/

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by Ir0nMan on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @02:53AM (#25567699)
+1, I would highly recommend people check out Privacy.com. I have been using it for years.

Create virtual card numbers, set spending limits, frequency, and burn or pause a "card" at any time.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by MauranKilom on Monday December 28, 2020 @07:46PM (#25565258)
How close does Paypal come to this? What is it lacking in your eyes (other than the "open standard" aspect)?
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by summm on Monday December 28, 2020 @08:23PM (#25565536)
non-anonymous: PayPal always sees who pays whom what amount, maybe even for what content. Reliance on a single vendor: If PayPal is down, or doesn't like some publication ("violates our standards/US laws/etc."), you're out of luck.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by pirateship on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:38PM (#25564679)
What about Brave Rewards? https://brave.com/brave-rewards/

You can set a budget to spend among the websites you visit, if they have "signed up" to the service.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by 0-_-0 on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @10:24AM (#25570570)
This is indeed the solution, and I don't get the HN reaction when it's mentioned.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by summm on Monday December 28, 2020 @08:18PM (#25565496)
That's exactly what https://taler.net is aiming for.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by creinhardt on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:25PM (#25563984)
A few different outlets have tried this over the years, and it's never gone that well, as far as I know. I think that was originally the model for Tinypass, which merged with Piano Media. Not sure if they still offer that model or not, but it's the most recent I can think of.

The reality is that for all but the largest news sites, this model won't really work. Say you're in a medium-small city. Even in your best case scenario of like 50% of the population reading your site, you'd still only likely get such a small sum per-article (10-20k pageviews, maybe?) that you'd still have to supplement revenue with advertising and other revenue streams. And now you're back where you started!

I love the idea, but I just struggle to see it happen at scale.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by hansvm on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:35PM (#25564066)
> you'd still only likely get such a small sum per-article (10-20k pageviews, maybe?) that you'd still have to supplement revenue with advertising and other revenue streams

Advertising and other revenue streams also only pay out per view on a fairly small number of views though, right? Is the problem not that advertising pays more per view than people are willing to in the first place of their own volition?

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by Judgmentality on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:41PM (#25564130)
I am not an advertising expert, nor do I know much about monetizing static media (in this case I mean newspapers). But regarding Spotify, the business model roughly breaks down to the top 2% of artists get 98% of the profits. So...it's basically impossible for anyone smaller than NYT or WaPo to ever make money from this model.

Likewise, most artists don't make any meaningful money from Spotify.

https://qz.com/1660465/the-way-spotify-and-apple-music-pays-...

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by hansvm on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:19PM (#25564500)
> So...it's basically impossible for anyone smaller than NYT or WaPo to ever make money from this model.

That doesn't necessarily follow though. It just means that organizations smaller than NYT or WaPo will make proportionally less money, which would be true of any monetization method. The question is whether you can bring in as many total dollars with such a shared subscription scheme as you could with advertising or some other similar venue.

> Likewise, most artists don't make any meaningful money from Spotify.

And if they would have made meaningful money with CDs, merch, and whatnot then the cause is that people are paying less in aggregate for music via Spotify than they used to from other channels (Spotify's cut might also play a role if the difference is only 2x or something). It's not that Spotify is paying out in proportion to listens, because that was already happening.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by Judgmentality on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:48PM (#25564777)
> It just means that organizations smaller than NYT or WaPo will make proportionally less money, which would be true of any monetization method.

You should look at the math in the article I linked. It's proportional to the aggregate of everybody - which basically completely disconnects it from what individual users listen to.

For example: Spotify only has 2 users. User A listens to 10 hours of Drake. User B listens to 90 hours of Kid Cudi. Even though User A and User B both pay $10 and have very exclusively chosen their musical preferences, Kid Cudi gets 90% of the total pool of money.

To put this in another perspective - imagine if someone on Netflix just looped Shit Show A 24/7 and there were 24 other users who watched Good Shit X,Y,Z... for exactly 1 hour every day. Netflix would allocate funding equally between the 1 Shit Show A that the 1 user watched and everything else that the 24 other users watched, even though that 1 show only actually generated 4% of their revenue. It doesn't make sense from a user perspective.

As the numbers increase to the ~100MM paid users of Spotify or Netflix, disparity increases between casual users and power users, it all sort of explodes to amplify all of the earnings to a select few.

What this means is the big guys dominate everything. I realize the music industry has shifted from touring to sell records, to streaming to sell concert tickets - but how do you do that for newspapers? Newspapers can't do anything equivalent to concerts. At that point they're just news stations, which really aren't the same as concerts from a business perspective.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by hansvm on Monday December 28, 2020 @10:03PM (#25566282)
> You should look at the math in the article I linked. It's proportional to the aggregate of everybody - which basically completely disconnects it from what individual users listen to.

I have actually read the article, and that's wholly compatible with my take on things (that before and after Spotify artists are paid roughly proportionally to how much their music is "used"). There are two interesting points that can create the apparent problem/paradox you're seeing:

(1) It's interesting that a typical power user before Spotify would pay more money for more music, and now there's a flat rate (or counting ads, two flat rates).

(2) The definition of "usage" has shifted a bit. Skipping a lot of details, before recordings people paid per performance, with the introduction of CDs and whatnot people are able to pay per unique song listened to (with power users typically though not necessarily buying more CDs), and Spotify shifts things back so that artists are compensated in terms of total listen time.

It's probably true that power users should pay more (if not, and if artists are appropriately compensated, then everyone else is subsidizing their use), and there can be an interesting discussion around how listeners actually derive value from music and if unique songs matter more than total minutes (or if a more complicated but less explainable metric ought to be used), but the big guys dominating everything is not a new phenomenon.

As an aside, the advertising, distribution channels, and network effects enabling the big guys to dominate everything to the extent they do _is_ moderately new on a human timescale, but that would be true independent of the payment scheme and doesn't seem super relevant to the discussion.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by Judgmentality on Monday December 28, 2020 @10:12PM (#25566343)
Fair enough. You make good points. I mostly see it as making the music industry worse for the sake of convenience, as musicians tend not to be fond of this new payment system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Spotify

I can't really disagree with anything you said. I just view it from a different perspective.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by hansvm on Monday December 28, 2020 @10:51PM (#25566530)
You are definitely onto something though. No matter how many points I make, musicians do like Spotify less than prior solutions, and musicians have a really hard time turning Spotify into a living. I was really only arguing against some causes for that observation (specifically, allocating a pool of funds based on some "usage" metric seems reasonable), but they're not necessarily off the hook. Here are a couple thoughts more in line with what I think your position is:

(1) Inflation adjusted, per capita we spend 5x less for music now than we did 20 years ago. Is that because Spotify doesn't charge power users more? Is it because users won't accept higher rates for song rentals? Regardless of the cause, there's less money to distribute.

(2) Popular music is more popular than ever. For a variety of reasons (some potentially Spotify-induced -- e.g., it's pretty hard for me to get it to recommend somebody who isn't soundly leading a genre it thinks I might be interested in), the top X% of artists are more listened to than ever, and that's going to exacerbate any other problems for the long tail of artists.

(2a) That idea is affecting a lot of industries right now. At some point in recent decades it was easy to be the best <thing> in your local small town or group of peers and get all the business. Plenty of formerly in-person industries are now competing globally though. E.g., I would have a hard time recommending the best ML practitioner in my hometown as a teacher rather than just taking Andrew Ng's courses. I'm not sure how that's going to play out in general, but if the top 1% of the population in any field can make everything we want/need then the idea of having to work for a living might need to be revisited? Maybe we'll eventually all transition to biomedical research when nothing else is scarce? In any event, in the short term a lot of professions are being disrupted.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by tomjen3 on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @01:18AM (#25567277)
If I own a plumbing business I don't want to advertise to everybody. I want to advertise to people 20 miles from my shop, who are likely to hire me.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by creinhardt on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:37PM (#25564663)
Well, advertising is usually billed to advertisers as a cost-per-thousand (really, cost-per-mil, or CPM) for impressions. For a small local news site, they'd be super happy to get a $10 CPM on a local online ad. So let's just say for fun that we'd get the same rate for the hypothetical 'Spotify for news' service. Say a locally focused article about the latest city council meeting gets 20,000 views. At a $10 CPM that only generates $200 (or $0.01 per person). Does that seem like enough revenue to cover the time it took the reporter to attend the meeting, write up the story, have it proofread/edited, and then posted online and printed and still make a profit? Probably not!

The sad part is that the $.01 per person rate is way, way higher than what Spotify apparently pays out (around $0.006 to $0.0084 from some Googling).

This starts to look better if you just go to something like $0.25 per read, but at that rate you're likely charging much more than it would cost to buy a print copy, or a per-day subscription rate, so i'm not sure the economics would work out there either.

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by wolco2 on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:45PM (#25564737)
When the full paper costs .50-2.00, .25 is too much per article unless you get the entire paper.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by creinhardt on Monday December 28, 2020 @07:00PM (#25564894)
Yeah, definitely! I think it'd be a tricky thing to balance an appropriate rate for most publishers. I suppose you'd start by figuring out how many articles per-day the average reader lays eyes on. You'd also start to have to forecast revenue that's correlated directly to readership, which would probably lead to fewer articles about city council, and more listicles or salacious coverage.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by bigpeopleareold on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @04:07AM (#25568052)
You're right with Tinypass - it didn't work out. Piano's model is a bit more financially viable for the type of customers it is targeting.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by marvinkennis on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:50PM (#25564222)
Blendle.com is a notable competitor here. Initially started out with a pay-per-article model, but now moved to a Spotify model as you mention.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by enriquec on Monday December 28, 2020 @04:53PM (#25563671)
Apple News is trying. Also better for magazines than current events.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by packetlost on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:10PM (#25563834)
It's too bad that number of sources they actually support is not very good. I got a free trial with my new phone and have no intent on renewing when it's up because it's borderline useless.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by mertd on Monday December 28, 2020 @05:18PM (#25563919)
I dislike Apple News because there is no way to follow the article to the publisher site.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by hilbertseries on Monday December 28, 2020 @06:13PM (#25564452)
Somewhat of a pain, but you can use the share button to open it in a web browser. Then when it forwards you to apple news use the back to old app in the top left corner. Then hit tap here and it takes you to the website.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by a9d34571 on Monday December 28, 2020 @09:23PM (#25565999)
Mozilla Scroll [0] kind of does this. Not on a large scale, though.

[0] https://scroll.com

Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by dartharva on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @01:50AM (#25567417)
Won't that increase the scope of censorship, something that should be avoided at all costs when it comes to news?
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by slothtrop on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @10:32AM (#25570661)
I'll check it out. Personally I'm in for "slow news": a weekly/monthly reader like the Economist, CSMonitor, New Yorker etc. I don't actually want to read news every day and I think that would be maddening. I catch a glimpse of headlines from aggregators at most.
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by cjameskeller on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:16PM (#25596043)
Texture was like this, but was acquired by Apple: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_(app)
Re:Ask HN: What are you surprised isn’t being worked on more? by asdf333 on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @12:15AM (#25566980)
sounds like apple news+