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Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by Synaesthesia on Sunday December 27, 2020 @07:46AM (#25550657)
I don't really follow the argument presented here. Seems to be a proposal to have ultra austerity.

>Economists of the Austrian school understand, that the boom is the real problem and the economic crisis is the necessary and positive cleansing mechanism.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by protoman3000 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:10AM (#25550766)
If wealthy people want to live in a minimalist world they should become monks instead of trying to push others to live like they themselves can’t.

The demand for austerity is a fetish of power abuse and discharge of guilt by claiming only the best motives.

Disgusting.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by logicchains on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:12AM (#25551137)
> If wealthy people want to live in a minimalist world they should become monks instead of trying to push others to live like they themselves can’t.

The people cheering on continuously increasing government debt are cheering on impoverishing their children and their children's children to temporarily bolster their own living standards. To me that seems disgusting, robbing the future to pay for excess in the present.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by scotty79 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:34AM (#25551277)
Only if the debt is going to be paid back. And I don't think it ever will.

Money is just a way of keeping track of how much of future output of civilization given entity deserves. If we decide that people who borrowed the money now don't deserve it then, puff, there's no debt, nothing to pay back, no burden on future taxpayers.

On the other hand the resources that we dig up now, burn, pollute... those are real theft robbing the future.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by voodootrucker on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:26AM (#25551633)
> that people who borrowed the money now don't deserve it then

Do you mean "people who loaned that money"? That is a lot of foreign governments who will refuse to keep loaning us more money which would mean we'd need to balance our budget pretty quickly, or face inflation.

Also, please realize that it is also lots of pensioners and also anyone expecting social security in the future [1].

What you're talking about isn't even Keynesian economics, it sounds like a form of monetary nihilism. We've been down that road before, and hyper-inflation is a real thing proven by history before [2].

[1] https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/policy-basics-....

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by scotty79 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:43AM (#25551742)
> people who loaned that money

Yes. Thank you for the correction.

Countries have whole net of iou-s between them and debts are not always expected to be paid back in full.

Some money borrowed comes from private market that you can disregard completely if you decide it was a bad idea and don't intend to repeat it in the future.

Yes. Hyperinflation is a thing but I wonder how high (stable) inflation you could have by just printing new money and using it to finance budget directly while preventing banks from inflating money supply with credit.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think assuming that because there's some monetary debt now it will all have to be paid back in the future is wrong because that's not what eventually is going to happen.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by xyzzyz on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:20AM (#25552017)
Sure, if you defraud people by borrowing money and promising to repay, but later reneging on that promise, you can temporarily get richer, especially if there is no justice system that can force you to repay that debt. This is the situation the US government is currently in. That can work. The problem is that once people are defrauded, the trust is lost, and you might not be able to borrow anything from them for a long time.

In fact, it’s worse: you’re not only losing trust on the bondholders whom you reneged to repay, but also most everyone else who observed it happening. You’ll be only left with people who will require handsome compensation for observably very real risk of not getting paid back.

So yes, our children will either have to repay all the debts we took, or default and lose immense amount of food will and trust that we are exploiting by borrowing at low rates. Either way, we are enriching ourselves at the expense of our children.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by voodootrucker on Sunday December 27, 2020 @12:58PM (#25552830)
This [1] was in HN recently, and I honestly never understood the term "petro dollar" fully until I read it.

It does a pretty good job at explaining why the US can basically print money at will without facing inflation. Spoiler alert: people need to buy oil in dollars, but it cost us much of our domestic manufacturing base. I bring this up because the belief seems common at present that money is imaginary and that we've made so much of it without causing inflation is proof of this fact, but (as per the article) it's like a balloon as when you squeeze it, the air has got to go somewhere.

[1] https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by haolez on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:12AM (#25550780)
I think it's not about austerity. It's probably about money printing and the quality of a currency.
Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by ianai on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:47AM (#25550989)
That’s their bad faith argument. They probably see anything causing the tide to rise all boats as erosion of their socioeconomic position.

Austerity is part of the recipe for turning a country into a failed state-see Greece.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by ilaksh on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:17AM (#25551171)
Personally I think both sides are totally right and also totally wrong.

Because we absolutely do need to print money to avoid millions of people living in the streets at this point.

But we also ARE going to be bankrupt by it.

And I think the way out is to recognize that the monetary system is dated and inadequate and create a new one. Unlikely they will do that, but I feel better mentioning it even though it will be ignored.

The new system would be digital and incorporate more real-world information and finer-grained control.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by logicchains on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:14AM (#25551155)
>They probably see anything causing the tide to rise all boats as erosion of their socioeconomic position.

How on Earth does inflation rise all boats when it's literally a wealth transfer from all currency holders to the money issuers and first spenders (banks and financial institutions)?

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by protoman3000 on Sunday December 27, 2020 @06:59PM (#25555305)
Can you please explain how in your economic model value creation gets financed?
Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by tenuousemphasis on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:37AM (#25551287)
it's not that they don't think there should be economic booms, just that when they are artificially amplified by newly printed money, they tend to disproportionally benefit those who receive the new money first. And inevitably, those artificial booms are followed by artificially large contractions, which harm those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder the most.
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Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by zabuni on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:18AM (#25550811)
Why the Quarantine is actual serfdom. https://www.forgac.me/blog/2020/4/5/pandemic-the-shortcut-to... Also on Mises.
Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by paganel on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:28AM (#25550879)
Keeping hundreds of millions of people locked inside their houses or in a 5- or 10-km radius is pretty close to modern serfdom, I mean, it definitely quacks and looks like serfdom to me. How else would you define modern serfdom?

Apparently we must apply these serfdom-like measures in order to win against the current pandemic, but that's a different discussion (one of effectiveness).

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by logicchains on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:23AM (#25551216)
>Apparently we must apply these serfdom-like measures in order to win against the current pandemic, but that's a different discussion (one of effectiveness).

It's not just a discussion of effectiveness, it's a discussion of values. But proponents of the lockdowns try to avoid that by painting anyone who doesn't share their value system as evil or immoral. There's a good chunk of the population who think it would be immoral to violate people's rights to free movement and association even if a disease with a 5-10% death rate was going around, because human rights aren't conditional. E.g. people who follow some form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics rather than a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism -based value system.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by Krustopolis on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:05AM (#25550745)
For the non-economists, he is referring to Ludwig von Mises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_von_Mises
Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by jeofken on Sunday December 27, 2020 @08:10AM (#25550764)
Highly doubt von Mises said that.

Here is good intro materials to his very rational economic theories https://mises.org/economics-beginners

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by logicchains on Sunday December 27, 2020 @09:13AM (#25551147)
Yes, because the greatest famines of the past 200 years, during the Great Leap Forward and holodomor, were caused by following extremist free market policies, not the opposite.
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Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by seibelj on Sunday December 27, 2020 @10:10AM (#25551527)
So ignorant that every implementation of socialism / communism, or any economic system that tried to control prices in some systemic way, starved or outright murdered vast amounts of humanity?

I love free societies and you should appreciate that capitalists allow the socialists to discuss revolution freely. Because if and when the socialists take over, I can guarantee they won’t afford the capitalists the same freedom.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by jahaja on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:20AM (#25552007)
> Because if and when the socialists take over, I can guarantee they won’t afford the capitalists the same freedom.

You should know your enemy better than lazily repeating Cold War rhetoric. 99% of all socialists today are firmly democratic.

Re:Central Bank Digital Currencies Are a Bad Idea by seibelj on Sunday December 27, 2020 @11:35AM (#25552129)
... as we watch the most overtly socialist countries on earth (Cuba, China, Venezuela, North Korea) do exactly the same playbook of thought crime, murder, and torture?