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Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by noizejoy on Sunday December 20, 2020 @02:16AM (#25484560)
With all the discussion about what the “big trick” is that makes the M1 seem to be such a breakthrough, I can’t help but wonder, if the M1 is more like the iPhone: The sum of a large number of small engineering improvements, coupled with a lot of component integration detail work, topped off by some very shrewd supply chain arrangements.

Analogous to the iPhone being foreshadowed by the iPod without most experts believing Apple could make a mobile phone from that, the M1 was foreshadowed by the A1 for mobile devices with many(most?) experts not forecasting how much it could be the base for laptops and desktops.

It seems, the M1 includes numerous small engineering advances and the near term lockup of the top of the line fab in the supply chain also reminds me of how Apple had secured exclusivity for some key leading edge iPhone parts (was it the screens?).

So the M1 strikes me as the result of something that Apple has the ability to pull off from time to time.

And that is rather hard to pull off financially, organizationally and culturally. And it more than makes up for some pretty spectacular tactical mis-steps (I’m looking at you, puck mouse, cube mac, butterfly keyboard).

EDIT for typo

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by gchadwick on Sunday December 20, 2020 @04:48AM (#25485083)
> The sum of a large number of small engineering improvements, coupled with a lot of component integration detail work, topped off by some very shrewd supply chain arrangements.

I think the vertical integration they have is a major advantage too.

I used to work at arm on CPUs. One thing I worked on was memory prefetching which is critical to performance. When designing a prefetcher you can do a better job if you have some understanding or guarantees as to the behaviour of the wider memory system (better yet if you can add prefetching specific functionality to it). The issue I faced is the partners (Samsung, Qualcomm etc) are the ones implementing the SoC and hence controlling the wider memory system. They don't give you detailed specs of how that works, nor is there an method where you can discuss with them appropriate ways to build things to enable better prefetching performance. You end up building something that's hopefully adaptable for multiple scenarios and no one ever gets a chance to do some decent end to end performance tuning. I'm either working with a model of what the memory system might be and Qualcomm/Samsung etc engineers are working with the CPU as a black box trying to tune their side of things to work better. Were we all under one roof I suspect we could easily have got more out of it.

You also get requirements based upon targets to hit for some specific IP, rather than requirements around the final product, e.g. silicon area. Generally arm will be keen to keep area increase low or improve performance / area ratio without any huge shocks on overall area. If you're apple you just care about the final end user experience and the potential profit margin. You can run the numbers and realise you can go big on silicon area and get where you want to be. With a multi-company/vendor chain each link is trying to optimise for some number they control, even if that overal has a negative impact on the final product.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by socialdemocrat on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:05AM (#25485414)
Very interesting comment. I mean you see some of the same things with companies like Tesla also pushing vertical integration.

A lot of the examples you see are similar to what you talk about. You can cut down on the friction between different parts.

I remember an example of software controlling a blinking icon on the dashboard, where this was a 10 minute code change for Tesla but a 2-3 month update cycle for a traditional automaker due to the dashboard hardware coming from a supplier.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by twic on Sunday December 20, 2020 @07:18AM (#25485762)
If we're comparing the M1 to x86, though, then all the prefetching and other memory shenanigans are on the CPU die. The A1 had an advantage over the SoCs used in Android phones here, but the M1 doesn't have an advantage over Intel and AMD CPUs.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by wffurr on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:13AM (#25485997)
In the case of the memory prefetcher story, this was about other ARM CPUs, which the M1 and A-series have left completely in the dust some years ago.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by bloopernova on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:35AM (#25485561)
May I ask what your opinion is on the NVidia ARM purchase?
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by aledthemathguy on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:48AM (#25485628)
thanks for sharing this. you are an insider. did u think of putting your knowledge on writing? i will sure like to read that kind of content :)
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by danarmak on Sunday December 20, 2020 @09:21AM (#25486357)
> the partners (Samsung, Qualcomm etc) are the ones implementing the SoC and hence controlling the wider memory system.

And I assume the partners also do some things differently, for at least somewhat legitimate reasons, and no one ARM design can be optimal for everyone.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by fluffy87 on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:44AM (#25485321)
Nvidia makes arm processors, GPUs and SoCs, so this integration will be good for them if the arm sale is approved.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by sitkack on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:02PM (#25487643)
You use the word partner with the proper noun Qualcomm but there are no quotes. Qualcomm's only focus is to make money while delivering the worst experience in every direction. They are often stuck in local maximums and they are too big to just flow around.

? shared prefetch queue ?

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by simonh on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:31AM (#25484824)
Apple has used exclusive access to advanced hardware as a differentiator several times. With screens it was Retina. They funded the development and actually owned the manufacturing equipment and leased it to the manufacturing subcontractors.

Also in 2008 they secured exclusive access to a then new laser cutting technology that they used to etch detail cuts in the unibody enclosures of their MacBooks, and then iPads. This enables them to mill and then precision cut the device bodies out of single blocks of Aluminium.

They’ve also frequently bought small companies to secure exclusive use of their specialist tech, like Anobit for their flash memory controllers, Primesense for the face mapping tech in FaceID, and there are many more. For Apple simply having the best isn’t enough, they want to be the only people with the best.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by _ph_ on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:26AM (#25485235)
Retina is a very interesting example for how Apple works. They have identified the necessary resolution (200+ ppi) for this technology and worked towards across their whole product range. The technology isn't exclusive to Apple, but they are the only company which pushes it, even if it sometimes means quite odd display resolutions.

Other manufacturers seem to be completely oblivious to it. They still equip their laptops either with full hd or 4k screens. The resulting ppi are all over the place. Sometimes way to low (bad quality) or way to high (4k in an 13" laptop, halves the runtime). Same with standalone screens, there is a good selection around 100ppi, but for "high res" the manufacturers just offer 4k in whatever size, so once again the ppi are all over the place again.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by whynotminot on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:04AM (#25487154)
Retina is a great example of how Apple operates in general. They care about outcomes, not spec sheets. Sure, they'll take the time to spec dunk when the opportunity presents itself. It's just rarely the reason they do something, whereas Dell/HP/whatever want to say "4K SCREEN OMG" on the box regardless of whether that actually leads to a better experience.

Apple realizes there's diminishing returns in upping the resolution beyond what your eyes can see. So they hit Retina, and then move on to focus on color accuracy, brightness, and contrast.

They do this throughout their product stack. Only as much RAM as their phones actually need, because RAM is both costly in terms of BOM and also consumes battery life.

Using fewer Megapixels than competing phones because it's about the quality, not quantity, when other manufacturers trip over themselves to have the most Megapixels.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by macintux on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:13AM (#25487205)
> Using fewer Megapixels than competing phones because it's about the quality, not quantity, when other manufacturers trip over themselves to have the most Megapixels.

When your customers are picking a product based off a spec sheet, that's the trap you easily fall into.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by fomine3 on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @03:03AM (#25515519)
> Apple realizes there's diminishing returns in upping the resolution beyond what your eyes can see. So they hit Retina, and then move on to focus on color accuracy, brightness, and contrast.

It's still not enough resolution for x2 upscaling that Apple argues optimal.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by macintux on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:18AM (#25487257)
> The technology isn't exclusive to Apple, but they are the only company which pushes it, even if it sometimes means quite odd display resolutions.

Apple's focus and commitment can be a pain to users who want something different, but overall it's a huge strategic advantage.

Software developers are building their apps for M1 because they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Apple isn't going to keep Intel around any longer than they have to, whereas Microsoft had and will continue to have a hard time persuading anyone to adopt ARM Windows because the opposite is true.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by AtlasBarfed on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:39PM (#25492180)
That would imply split-brain development. Yes I agree that devs will support M1 out of necessity in supporting a minority market share OS that will expand from M1's apparent superiority....

But Wintel will own business desktops for probably a decade, unfortunately.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by abcxjeb284 on Monday December 21, 2020 @03:43AM (#25493187)
> But Wintel will own business desktops for probably a decade, unfortunately.

Do you see this as being different from what was going on pre-M1?

Aside from shared math libraries, seems like most stuff required cross compilation just to work - I’m not clear that M1 adds more work on top of that.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by withaplomb on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:45AM (#25485615)
There are a few PC manufacturers offering 3K laptops at least (Lenovo, Huawei when I looked). For monitors it’s nuts, just Iiyama has a 5k screen with multiple inputs (the LG has only one input so useless for switching between pc and Mac)
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by musicale on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:28PM (#25489248)
Perhaps I'm lucky, but my LG 5K has aged really well. Fantastic upgrade in 2016 and still going strong. I'm surprised there aren't more 5K 27" monitors because they are great.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by _ph_ on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:19PM (#25490545)
Personally, I hope Dell makes their own screen with the panel of the 6k Apple display. I would probably grab it in a heartbeat. I would consider the Apple display, but I don't need the reference video quality and especially I would like to have more than one input on a display that expensive.

Apple, what are you thinking? People who can afford that display might want to connect their desktop mac and their laptop to it.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by AtlasBarfed on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:41PM (#25492189)
8k TVs are imminent. The only real market for these with their detail only apparent up close is PC monitors and gaming.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by guerby on Sunday December 20, 2020 @02:29PM (#25488850)
Dell Inspiron 8000 serie was released in 2000 with 15 inch 1600x1200 screen resolution:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Inspiron_laptops

That's about 130+ish dpi and it was unmatched for years: I know I had one and was depressed to see dpi do down and down afterwards :)

Hopefully Apple restarted the dpi race.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by bitwize on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:34AM (#25486935)
I have a Chromebook with a 2400x1600 display. Not one of the standard resolutions, but it is 200-some ppi.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by brandonmenc on Sunday December 20, 2020 @02:36PM (#25488901)
FingerWorks was one of the best of these acquisitions.

By the time I was ready to purchase one of their keyboards to put in my iBook G3 Snow, they had shut down. Little did I know...

https://technical.ly/philly/2013/01/09/jeff-white-fingerwork...

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by vizzier on Sunday December 20, 2020 @04:27AM (#25485023)
I believe this is the only consumer 5nm chip currently available as well. Ryzen gen 3 is still on 7nm. I'd be interested to see how well general purpose compute on the m1 vs ryzen gen 3 mobile will be.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by simonh on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:56AM (#25485384)
The thing is M1 performance isn't really the point in itself though. This is the lowest performance core architecture Apple will ever produce for MacOS, aimed at their lowest end cheapest hardware. It's only one data point towards what we can expect when they take the gloves off and go after the performance end of the market for real.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by bloopernova on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:37AM (#25485574)
I hope so, I'd love to see a more heterogeneous chip market, with x64, ARM, M1+, RISC-V all competing with each other.

Maybe compilers would be default spit out binaries that run on all of them, like Apple's Rosetta or whatever it's called.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by mbreese on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:03AM (#25486652)
> binaries that run on all of them

Universal binaries. Apple calls those binaries “Universal binaries”. Rosetta is more like running different arch binaries through qemu. A brief look through Google says that there was a FatELF specification created years back, but never really went anywhere. Presumably because Linux users tend to know what arch they are using.

Fat binaries would make distribution easier, but would double (or triple) the size of a binary. I doubt it would be worth the size trade off.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by sitkack on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:08PM (#25487698)
Binary size is a small percentage of the overall asset bundle.

Docker also supports multiarch images.

Given how easy it is to JIT or BT RISC ISAs, the future is good for binary portability.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by mbreese on Sunday December 20, 2020 @02:15PM (#25488754)
I’m thinking of all of the small utilities and small command line programs that make up a stock Linux distro. Those don’t have many resources other than the binaries. Sure, the size of each is not much in absolute scale, but combined, you have a pretty significant increase if they were all fat binaries.

That said, I don’t know what Apple does. For example, in the main download for Big Sur, is (for example) zsh a universal binary, or are there a specific x86/M1 downloads. I haven’t looked.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by musicale on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:33PM (#25489284)
Looking at /usr/bin, /usr/lib/ etc. it's not quite as big as I expected. Going fat might be feasible, especially considering how large storage is at this point.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by sitkack on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:31PM (#25490630)
My /usr/bin is 800M

    /usr/bin$ du -schL .
    813M total
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by leecb on Sunday December 20, 2020 @04:59AM (#25485129)
The Huawei Mate 40 came out two months ago, and uses the Hisilicon Kirin 9000, which is also on TSMC's 5nm. It has about 30% more transistors and a higher clockspeed than the A14.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by 1123581321 on Sunday December 20, 2020 @09:10PM (#25491476)
Would you say that the comparison to the A13 from this article is fair? https://www.notebookcheck.net/HiSilicon-Kirin-9000-Processor...
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by AsyncAwait on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:20AM (#25486044)
AMD has substantially more CPU/Microarch design experience.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by molszanski on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:27AM (#25485241)
"still on 7nm" :)
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by FullyFunctional on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:47AM (#25484888)
They bought Intrinsity as well, leaving us wonder about the fate of Fast14.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by intricatedetail on Sunday December 20, 2020 @07:42AM (#25485865)
What could be the other motivation to be "The only one with the best" apart from greed? That's a pretty strong giveaway of being evil.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by simonh on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:12AM (#25485992)
They're not 'the only ones' in that childish playground bragging kind of sense. If you want one you can buy one from them. It's just business.

Also much of this tech only existed when it did due to their investment in technology development and tooling. Microsoft had dragged their feet on Hi-DPI for years before Apple jumped ahead with retina and 5K and forced them to pull their socks up. Android phones probably went to 64-bit two years earlier than they otherwise would have. With Surface devices Microsoft has come up with some genuinely innovative and forward looking designs and engineering, but would they have done that without the spur of competing with the iPad and Mac? Apple have been single handedly dragging the rest of the industry kicking and screaming into the future, to everyone's benefit. How is that outcome 'evil'?

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by alanfalcon on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:24AM (#25486827)
I think it starts, at least, with simple practicality. Apple products usually sell in massive volumes. When they introduce some new aspect, they have to be able to produce huge numbers of this thing, and since it's new, the industrial capacity to produce at those numbers reliably does not exist. They have no choice but to buy out and invest in all the available capacity, because they rarely release innovations in some small-scale experimental product. They swing for the fences for a mass market home run almost every time.

And they do this so well because they're led by Tim Cook who approaches the big picture in part in terms of supply chain.

I don't argue that cornering the market isn't an accounted-for and desirable side-benefit of this arrangement. I just don't think it's usually the starting point for them.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by christophilus on Sunday December 20, 2020 @09:19AM (#25486342)
It’s business. This is all part of the reputation and image Apple wants. Any reasonably managed business will lean into its differentiations. This happens in every business sector at any measurable scale.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by calvano915 on Sunday December 20, 2020 @07:54AM (#25485917)
Greed sure, but it's also control. Apple has always been fanatical about controlling what the user, seller, repair shops, retail, etc can do with their products. Among other reasons, its one of the top reasons I'll never use Apple computers. I want complete control of my devices, and the ability to break my machines while pushing boundaries. Apple would rather have me locked in to their 30% fee App Store cash cow with apps that require their approval to exist.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by musicale on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:37PM (#25489303)
I have heard that it might be possible to hack your Mac laptop (using a setting in System Preferences>Security&Privacy>General) to allow it to run code on that isn't from Apple's App Store.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by simonh on Tuesday December 29, 2020 @03:58PM (#25574915)
There is no lock preventing you installing non-Apple executable. Theres a warning and such but I install apps from third parties all the time. There are even several package managers, macports and homebrew, that will install userland unix binaries for you.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by jononor on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:19PM (#25490092)
Where is that setting on the iPhone and iPad?
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by EricE on Wednesday December 23, 2020 @11:54PM (#25525158)
There isn't one because the iPhone/iPad is a closed ecosystem, whereas macOS is not.

There are pro's and con's to both models; choose the one that works best for you. Even if it's not Apple :)

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by sneak on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:42AM (#25487489)
Brand marketing. It cements the Apple brand as being high quality and Apple products as being better than anything else available, justifying a premium price in the minds of their customers.

It's usually a legitimate justification, too. Nobody else makes hardware this nice, almost as a general rule.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by Shivetya on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:37AM (#25486113)
It is not greed, it is ego. Apple as a whole has an ego complex and it shows in so much of what they do. They always, to the point of harping, emphasize the Pro label and premium experience and premium materials. Even their head quarters is an expression of pure ego.

So when compared to other companies which do put out products with similar materials the difference is that Apple never reaches low. They won't sacrifice their premium material usage and expression to reach lower end markets.

Air Pods Max might be the situation backfiring on them. They were so wrapped up in having aluminum enclosures for the headphones they ended up with an overweight and overpriced to many product. It is going to be real curious what a lower cost version of these entail; the rumor is they will come but when and of what materials?

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by _ph_ on Sunday December 20, 2020 @04:31AM (#25485040)
The sum of a large number of small engineering improvements, coupled with a lot of component integration detail work, topped off by some very shrewd supply chain arrangements.

I think you precisely have it. There is no single magic reason the M1 is so good, just a lot of things coming together. They start with a better instruction set than x86, have of course the best process available, and perhaps the largest part, they have built up an increadible team over a decade. And they are extremely focussed in what they target. If anything, that is Apples "magic". They are not making a chip which is built in an abstract manner to be sold to random customers. They have exactly their needs in mind and execute towards those. In a sense AMD did that with the chips for the Playstation/XBox. Like the M1 it is basically a SOC. There optimized for great graphics performance. Unfortunately, those chips are not sold separately for building your own PC.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by alwillis on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:08AM (#25484738)
So the M1 strikes me as the result of something that Apple has the ability to pull off from time to time.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention?

Apple shipped 64-bit ARM processors for the iPhone at least a year before Qualcomm could do it for Android devices. The reaction to the A7 was similar to what we're seeing now with the M1—not possible, there's some trickery going on, etc.

Apple is pretty good at this processor transition thing, going from 68k to PowerPC to Intel to ARM.

And it more than makes up for some pretty spectacular tactical mis-steps (I’m looking at you, puck mouse, cube mac, butterfly keyboard).

Except for the recent keyboard issues, you're literally talking about another era. I wouldn't put the shape of the mouse for the 1998 iMac in the same category as transitioning a $9 billion revenue product line to a radically different processor architecture.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by dwighttk on Sunday December 20, 2020 @07:00AM (#25485680)
> not possible, there's some trickery going on

“...and even if they did it, it doesn’t matter” (though I guess not many are saying that about M1)

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by alwillis on Sunday December 20, 2020 @08:24PM (#25491204)
Yes—there was a lot of “it won’t matter” talk when the A7 shipped.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by DonHopkins on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:53AM (#25487068)
Don't forget Apple's first transition from 6502 to 68k. That was pretty bumpy though.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by alwillis on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:40PM (#25489325)
I was only talking about the Mac, which never used the 6502–that was the Apple II.

The Apple IIgs did end up on the 65816.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by hajile on Sunday December 20, 2020 @09:15AM (#25486309)
> Apple shipped 64-bit ARM processors for the iPhone at least a year before Qualcomm could do it for Android devices. The reaction to the A7 was similar to what we're seeing now with the M1—not possible, there's some trickery going on, etc.

That is because it is not possible to ship a top-end design for a new ISA in that amount of time. The more reasonable answer is they had been working on a new core design for some years before. AMD has hinted that their Zen design makes it relatively easy to swap the x86 frontend for an ARM frontend.

Apple was considering buying MIPS around that time. I suspect they strong-armed ARM into accepting their ARMv8 proposal because it was good and because Apple buying MIPS would be disastrous for ARM's share price. At that point, it wasn't faster than possible, it was just designing the last part of the chip (or if both frontends were being worked on in tandem, cancelling one of them and focusing everyone on the other).

This explains why ARM announced v8 and then took the full 4 years to ship their first low-power core (A53) and even longer to ship their bad first try at a high-performance core (A57 -- with the more baked A72 being superior in almost every way).

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by jonas21 on Sunday December 20, 2020 @03:09PM (#25489110)
> the near term lockup of the top of the line fab in the supply chain also reminds me of how Apple had secured exclusivity for some key leading edge iPhone parts (was it the screens?).

Yes, Apple managed to lock up most of the global supply of capacitive touchscreens for about a year after the iPhone came out. The iPhone wasn't the first phone to use a capacitive touchscreen, but for a while, it seemed like it was because nobody else could produce devices with them in large volumes.

People used to dismiss Tim Cook as "just" a supply chain guy. But I think it's become clear that supply chain management is at least as important to Apple's success as anything on the design or marketing side.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by Zenst on Sunday December 20, 2020 @09:30AM (#25486410)
In some ways it is the environment the M1 was born from that helped. mobile space CPU's focus upon low power usage and that has seen many core software tasks get dedicated instructions and why you end up with the M1 in some tests utterly trouncing competition as it has dedicated hardware catering for the common niche things that software ends up doing - the hardware video encoding being a small area, but deep down, more than that. This along with advances in software/hardware integration and being able to synergies that at a level nobody else can. The way to think of it is - if Intel did an operating system from scratch, it would tap the CPU extremely well compared to others due to them knowing the internals better and fully. Then add the ability for them to see that adding some dedicated hardware to replace some software instruction combinations and you start to see a tightly integrated team of CPU and Operating system/software.

One area that I've always wished CPU's would take would be a dedicated core or two for the OS that is completely isolated from the other cores, which would be for the software/applications you run. Now if those ran about two different architectures - darn that would be the inner geek in me appeased.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by setpatchaddress on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:47AM (#25487529)
What would your goal be? I think locking a modern, general-purpose OS to a small number of cores would artificially constrain performance, assuming a reasonable scheduler.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by Zenst on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:05PM (#25487679)
The OS don't need that much grunt, some drivers maybe - hence one or two cores, isolated away from user software and secure.

Scheduler wise it would become easier as no juggling cycles upon main core that the OS is running upon. Whilst not hitting real-time OS levels, it would be a nice middle ground in some area's as well.

Also for cores, the OS and user software don't need the same OS when the OS is just API calls passing parameters, so would be viable to have the OS upon one core type and the user-space cores a totally different architecture. That again would add another level of security.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by billsnow on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:36PM (#25487951)
You can already do this. There's a kernel boot parameter called isocpu or something and the kernel will only run on the logical cpus listed. Furthermore, you can isolate your user programs. The general benefit is latency, but there's a theoretical trade-off in scheduling bandwidth. The memory heirarchy will be utilized less efficiently too.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by africanboy on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:00AM (#25486616)
The project HydrOS aimed to build an Erlang operating system that way: one core for the OS, one scheduler per core other than the OS one.

Unfortunately it looks the project is now abandoned

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by Zenst on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:12AM (#25486722)
Thank you, not heard of that, had a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OyRFbf6MDk Seems the main/only dev moved onto other things and it stagnated.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by stoat_meniscus on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:51AM (#25487056)
The PS3 did something like this. One processing unit of the Cell processor was reserved for the OS while the rest could be used for games.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by jolux on Sunday December 20, 2020 @02:44AM (#25484657)
The first A-series chip was the A4, because it came out with the iPhone 4.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by ogre_codes on Sunday December 20, 2020 @01:19PM (#25488307)
> The sum of a large number of small engineering improvements, coupled with a lot of component integration detail work,

Exactly. ARM has been progressing faster than Intel. For the past 8 years or so, Apple has had the fastest ARM CPU out there on the iPhone/ iPad. Apple has sucked up TSMC's 5nm production. They've integrated a pile of relevant coprocessors into the CPU and put fast RAM on the package. The SSD is lightning fast and SSD encryption is done via a dedicated coprocessor.

It's not one magic trick, it is countless bits of engineering, manufacturing, and purchase choices.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by xorcist on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:14AM (#25486739)
> by the iPod without most experts believing Apple could make a mobile phone

Except for all the people practically begging Apple to make a phone for years, except all the analysts who wrote essays on how computer companies could make successful phones, except for all the fanboys making fan-art of phones with that big circular wheel.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by api on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:46AM (#25487527)
I don't buy it. I think there is in fact one "trick," which is shedding the X86 decode bottleneck.

People always make the point that the X86 decoder is only ~5% of the die. Sure, that's true, but keep two things in mind:

(1) While it's only 5% of the die, it runs constantly at full utilization. The ALU is also only a small percentage of the die (5-10%). How hot does your CPU get when you're running the ALU full blast? Now consider that there is a roughly ALU-sized piece always running full blast no matter what the CPU is doing because X86 instructions are so complex to decode. Not only does this give X86 a higher power use "floor," but it means there's always more heat being dissipated. This extra heat limits thermal throttling and thus sustained clock speed unless you have really good cooling, which is why the super high performance X86 chips need beefy heatsinks or water cooling.

(2) It apparently takes exponentially more silicon to decode X86 instructions with parallelism beyond 4 instructions at once. This limits instruction level parallelism unless you're willing to add heat dissipation and power, which is a show stopper for phones and laptops and undesirable even for servers and desktops.

People make the point that ARM64 (and even RISC-V) are not really "RISC" in the classic "reduced" sense as they have a lot of instructions, but that's not really relevant. The complexity in X86 decoding does not come from the number of instructions or even the number of legacy modes and instructions but from the variable length of these instructions and the complexity of determining that length during pipelined decode.

M1 leverages the ARM64 instruction set's relative decode simplicity to do 8X parallel decode and keep a really deep reorder buffer full, permitting a lot of reordering and instruction level parallelism for a very low cost in power and complexity. That's a huge win. Moreover there is nothing stopping them from going to 12X, 16X, 24X, and so on if it's profitable to do so.

The second big win is probably weaker memory ordering requirements in multiprocessor ARM, which allows more reordering.

There are other wins in M1 like shared memory between CPU, GPU, and I/O, but those are smaller wins compared to the big decoder win.

So yes this does foreshadow the rise of RISC-V as RISC-V also has a simple-to-decode instruction set. It would be much easier to "pull an M1" with RISC-V than with X86. Apple could have gone RISC-V, but they already had a huge investment in ARM64 due to the iPhone and iPad.

X86 isn't quite on its death bed, but it's been delivered a fatal prognosis. It'll be around for a long long time due to legacy demand but it won't be where the action is.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by imtringued on Monday December 21, 2020 @02:37AM (#25492883)
>This extra heat limits thermal throttling and thus sustained clock speed unless you have really good cooling, which is why the super high performance X86 chips need beefy heatsinks or water cooling.

The 16 core Ryzen has the same TDP as the 8 core Ryzen. Increasing the clock speed for slightly more single core performance is an intentional design decision, not an engineering flaw. Clock up those Apple chips and they are going to guzzle more power than AMD's chips. https://images.anandtech.com/doci/14892/a12-fvcurve_575px.pn...

Apple's preference for manufacturing processes that optimize for mobile low ower consumption below the 4Ghz range mean scaling up is harder than just slapping a higher TDP on the chips. Remember the TDP of the whole package already exceeds the TDP of the most power hungry Ryzen core running at 4.8Ghz. Apple has enough headroom to boost to the same frequencies but they don't, because of the manufacturing process they have chosen which loses all of its efficiency beyond 4Ghz.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by pmlnr on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:49AM (#25487041)
Or... in 10 years, we'll have another round of Meltdown, Spectre, etc, because of the big tricks.
Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by scottlocklin on Sunday December 20, 2020 @06:54AM (#25485652)
I haven't studied it carefully, but it sure looks like 90% of the performance improvement is using a big cache, which is a totally obvious thing to do. Also the big x86 guys have more or less been asleep at the wheel for almost a decade.

My go to example: my 2011 x220 sandybridge stinkpad is faster than my 2017 kaby lake mbp. 2005 machines (I dunno, Lakeport?) aren't even in the same ballpark as modern machines. Had that pace continued up to current year, the M1 chip would be a stinker. As it is, AMD is close and could smoke M1 in next generation 5nm chips, restoring order to the universe.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by whynotminot on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:08AM (#25487173)
> I haven't studied it carefully, but it sure looks like 90% of the performance improvement is using a big cache, which is a totally obvious thing to do. Also the big x86 guys have more or less been asleep at the wheel for almost a decade.

Dude, has Intel called you yet? You've got some serious CTO chops.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by CrazyStat on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:16AM (#25486757)
>As it is, AMD is close and could smoke M1 in next generation 5nm chips, restoring order to the universe.

Comparing next gen to current gen is a strange way to do things. Apple will also have a next gen M chip.

Re:Apple M1 foreshadows Rise of RISC-V by NathanOsullivan on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:36PM (#25490244)
AMD has a public roadmap, and (assuming they execute) their next CPU in 2021 will be 5nm.

Apple do not of course, but TSMC have stated they expect 3nm to be produced in volume in 2H22 which tells us we have at least one more round of Apple Silicon on 5nm.

In 2021 we will presumably see Apple Silicon parts with increased core counts and desktop TDP

This will be our first chance to see how the best of ARM goes against the best of X86 in like-for-like configurations.