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Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by wpietri on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:27AM (#25478441)
I think it's pretty simple: the potential revenue loss to Facebook is much larger than the expected costs of cleaning up a PR mess.

And I'm sure they're right. It's important to remember that Facebook can precisely measure the impact of news articles like this. And even without messing with the newsfeed algorithms, they have way more influence over consumer perception of Facebook than a few news articles do. For example, they could introduce some new "privacy" feature and talk it up in in-app notifications. Or they have you review your privacy settings, something most people will glance at and move on, thinking they are in control. And they can do things like this whenever consumer confidence flags.

If Facebook loses a few more users of the sort that are tech-savvy and informed enough that this pushes them over the edge, that's fine. In fact, it might be even better, as the remaining population is more easily wrangled.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by jldugger on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:55PM (#25479425)
> And I'm sure they're right. It's important to remember that Facebook can precisely measure the impact of news articles like this. And even without messing with the newsfeed algorithms, they have way more influence over consumer perception of Facebook than a few news articles do.

Are we 100 percent confident that FB is doing this because the math works out and not because the pressure from the board is to 'do something about this'? We're all aware, presumably, of cases where the corporate hierarchy demands action when the data suggests acting at all is harmful. It seems silly to assume FB is the one company immune to those pressures.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by spinningslate on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:41PM (#25479890)
> We're all aware, presumably, of cases where the corporate hierarchy demands action when the data suggests acting at all is harmful.

True in most cases - but probably not FB. According to Investopedia [0], Zuckerberg owns 57.9% of voting shares as of 2020-12-09. Board pressure has a lot less sway when the chairman & CEO holds such a majority.

[0]: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/insights/082216/top-9-...

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EDIT: fixed date

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by WalterSear on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:19PM (#25480287)
So Zuckerberg pressured people to 'do something about this'.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by what2build on Saturday December 19, 2020 @03:12PM (#25480753)
That something, to my mind, is “brand privacy invasive tracking as bringing you free/cheap shit.”

It worked for the last decade. They’re doubling down, unaware the dotcom 2.0 bubble is not bursting but being left behind.

Apple shipping a SOC that can do it all will trickle into Dells thinking, driven by backlash against privacy invasive grifting we can do cloud work at home.

Concerns over screen time will lead to decoupling from screens. More IOT and voice controls and other input alternatives like smart sensors.

Facebook is not a laptop, or an operating system. It’s AIM. We moved on from AIM but kept computing. The tech industry hasn’t matured. It grifted on last generations addiction to TV.

More imaginative applications are yet to come.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by webmaven on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:35PM (#25480422)
> So Zuckerberg pressured people to 'do something about this'.

From which logically follows "This is something, therefore we must do it."

Yeah, the actual audience for the ad might just be "Facebook executives", and no one else, for all practical purposes.

It would be interesting to know whether any metrics (NPS, perhaps?) are even being tracked that the campaign is intended to influence, or if this marks a regression to the "half of my ad budget is wasted, I just don't know which half" days of yore.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by wpietri on Saturday December 19, 2020 @04:45PM (#25481503)
I'm not sure why 100% confidence matters, but yes, many explanations are possible. Even simultaneously. E.g., the initial impetus might be higher-ups pressuring for action. But then somebody runs the numbers on what the potential long-term revenue impact is and sees the number is very large, far larger than the handful of millions they spend on their usual PR disaster cleanup.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by jldugger on Sunday December 20, 2020 @12:12AM (#25484037)
But, then, outside observers cannot distinguish which of these scenarios we are in, and we cannot conclude that FB is doing this because 'the numbers say so.'
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by wpietri on Sunday December 20, 2020 @05:37AM (#25485293)
We can't ever be sure of anything in this complex and murky world. Especially given we're trying to understand it with 3 pounds of meat. But the clock ticks on.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by d3nj4l on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:10PM (#25478914)
> It's important to remember that Facebook can precisely measure the impact of news articles like this. And even without messing with the newsfeed algorithms, they have way more influence over consumer perception of Facebook than a few news articles do.

This is what worries me the most about this. I'm seeing full front-page ads around the "Facebook stands for small businesses" mantra in India - a country where Apple is by and large insignificant in the smartphone space. I can only assume they're confident about this PR blitz, and I hope Apple doesn't drop the IDFA changes due to this.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by camillomiller on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:29PM (#25479134)
Apple confirmed there is absolutely no intention of dropping it. It's coming in spring. I think Apple got already way too lenient in deciding to give developers almost a year-long grace period since the announcement at WWDC 2020.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by definitelyhuman on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:39PM (#25479236)
They’re pretty determined, with March being the best rumored rollout so far. Delays are around SKAdNetwork, as the change destroys traditional attribution and alters how ads are run. They gave networks and publishers more time to adapt, but there won’t be any more delays

Antitrust risk could be a factor, as the preferred treatment of ASA seems dubious - but the change seems to be coming regardless

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by marcod on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:43PM (#25479276)
Since the US government is not doing much on that front, we're now looking to Apple to save us...

Of course, the other half of people are running Android and I don't see Google getting on that bandwagon.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by sillysaurusx on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:35AM (#25478517)
And I'm sure they're right. It's important to remember that Facebook can precisely measure the impact of news articles like this.

It's tempting to think of Facebook as omniscient, but I'm not sure how precisely it can be measured. Economically, yes, maybe. But morally?

Remember, the Timnit controversy ended up with letters from congress to Google's CEO. In bigcos, not everyone forecasts everything.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by infogulch on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:09PM (#25478903)
What makes you think that Facebook even considers the moral impact of its actions?
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by sillysaurusx on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:37PM (#25479208)
It's not so much that they care about the moral impact of their actions, as that society might backlash them if they're not too careful. Large != untouchable.

I wish I'd thought of a better word to use than "morally," though, since it didn't quite capture what I meant to say. I meant, people being upset about their actions is hard to quantify.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by infogulch on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:03PM (#25480117)
Ah, I can agree with that. Facebook probably does consider its actions from a moral standpoint if only to calculate the outrage potential.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by edoceo on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:41PM (#25479271)
Oh, rough! A strongly worded letter from Congress. I'll read it after I finish counting all my money.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by marcosdumay on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:25PM (#25480329)
Hum... Facebook has some large experiments on mood analysis and manipulation on their knowledge base. If anybody can measure this, it's them.

What can still happen is that the campaign backfires so quickly that hey don't have time to react. I don't know their reaction time, but they've been doing mood manipulation for long enough to think it's short.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by wpietri on Saturday December 19, 2020 @04:35PM (#25481437)
It's true that not everybody forecasts everything, but I think it can be pretty precisely measured via things that they already track, like "how much does this person visit Facebook" and "based on engagement, what are their interests". They were very big on measuring factors related to growth; I'd be very surprised if they weren't measuring what causes people to leave.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by sosborn on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:25PM (#25479720)
It can't even really be measured economically beyond how much it costs to run the ad. They will see the result of the ad, but FB will never know how it would turn out if they didn't run it.
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by andrewljohnson on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:58PM (#25479461)
What effect do you think those letters will have?
Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by sillysaurusx on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:01PM (#25479493)
It's hard to say. In the worst case, it could be a prelude to regulating AI in general.

I'm legitimately concerned it might be, if you read between the lines: https://twitter.com/RepYvetteClarke/status/13392973588158341...

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by riidom on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:07PM (#25478886)
From me they get both: I am, and will be, a revenue loss, and in addition to that got to enjoy this remarkable screenshot.

Not going to say anything positive about apple here, but also nothing negative.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by leplen on Saturday December 19, 2020 @02:36PM (#25480425)
"It's important to remember that Facebook can precisely measure the impact of news articles like this"

What would that measurement look like? What is the control group for a news cycle? What signal would you expect to see change?

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by wpietri on Saturday December 19, 2020 @04:42PM (#25481482)
I'm sure they're already tracking things like DAU and UAM. They are well known for experimenting to maximize engagement and growth. And we know they already do topic modeling and interest tracking, as that drives ad targeting.

So in their shoes I'd be looking at newsfeed articles about Facebook, user sentiment in the post text and the comments, and subsequent impact on UAM and DAU numbers.

In their shoes, I'd also be tracking the performative departure. I've seen a number of people post about Facebook and saying they're quitting. It wouldn't be hard to look back at what they've been reading and forward at the impact on their friends who read the post.

If I needed more data, I'd tie all this in with user surveys and user studies for deeper qualitative and quantitative data. Not sure if Facebook does those, but I know other platforms do.

Re:Facebook: Free as in Bullshit by SeriousM on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:06PM (#25479542)
> I think it's pretty simple: the potential revenue loss to Facebook is much larger than the expected costs of cleaning up a PR mess.

That sounds like a quote from fight club and I guess you're right!