News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by speeder on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:57AM (#25467667)
Part of the problem for example is the story swings between "good" and "great" only if you are on a particular path.

The corpo path for example is a bad one:

1. in the intro you litearlly do nothing, you only hear an NPC explain a mission to you, and right after that mission is cancelled and you are thrown in the game proper, you literally do nothing except hear people talking about stuff that later is completely irrelevant in the rest of the game.

2. The main quest seemly assumes you are a street kid, your character talk with street kid slang and all, the few times you can talk as if you were corpo, not only the character style of talking changes, even the volume changes, it is very jarring, whenever you click on the corpo option the character personality, talking style and the volume of the recording of his voice actor changes.

3. Some parts of 2, ditto for nomads, for example if you are playing as nomad, and do a certain nomad sidequest, they say "you don't understand our issues, you are not a nomad", because obviously they assume you are on the streetkid path.

4. It is easy to get lost in the story because of bugs, for example many people got quests totally derailed because they skipped triggers of the scripts or something else broke entirely, and also many people got confused because critical information on dialogue was missed because the constant phoen calls about gigs and delamain cars can play on top and hide the critical dialogue.

So even though one specific path of the game, seemly has good story, even then people can feel like the story is crap because the game sabotages itself.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by simias on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:43PM (#25470385)
The multiple path concept is evidence of CDPR biting more than they could chew. They spread themselves too thin, the game is less than the sum of its parts because half-finished subsystems weigh down what can be a very solid game when it focuses on its fundamentals.

OP says "Some players expected this to be cyberpunk-themed RDR2/GTA5". I think some higher ups at CDPR wanted for it to be that at the start, and they only corrected course very late into development when they realized that they'd never meet the deadline.

If they had cut off the driving completely for instance, and instead focusing on having things like taxis and public transportation, you'd get a much more immersive RPG setting and you wouldn't have the immersion breaking, performance tanking, AI-stupidity-demonstrating driving and car chase sequences.

Then once the game is successful you can extend and improve it with expansions and sequels, building on top of a solid base.

Instead they managed to miss the deadline twice in a row despite making their devs crunch and despite all that they released a completely broken, unfinished game.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by nexuist on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:46AM (#25475400)
> If they had cut off the driving completely for instance

This is one of my biggest gripes with the game. You literally have self driving cars built into the lore (and the story - Delamain) AND flying cars (Trauma Team, police officers), why the hell does anyone care about owning a car or driving it? We have cybernetic eyes and our cars drive/fly themselves and we still need to put up LED traffic lights?

Sure it makes sure in the outskirts to pick up a 4x4 offroader and do some cool desert driving for side missions. But in Night City? It should be modeled after pedestrians, and it is in some cases, but the road layout clearly looks like it was modeled for a city in 2012 and not 2077.

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the story (watching let's plays no less, I don't have the specs to run the game myself). I think it's a great game despite the bugs and performance issues that will unfortunately haunt CDPR for a great deal of time. But some of the plot holes are just so deep, it hurts to think about because of how much better the story would be.

For example, I know the breaching minigame where you have to click through the matrix to complete the sequence of hex codes is unrealistic and not how you would hack a real computer. Obviously, I'm not going to gripe about that, it's a minigame inside of a video game and it's meant for entertainment, not realism. But, come on, you introduce us to cybernetic eye implants and we still have to use a 27" monitor to check our email? Why would you ever use a monitor again?

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by cercatrova on Saturday December 19, 2020 @12:40PM (#25479244)
Because people want to drive cars in games. I for one would be very bored if I had to take an automated system like public transport or self driving cars.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by simias on Saturday December 19, 2020 @01:41PM (#25479883)
It depends on the type of the game. Deus Ex, Vampire the Masquerade, (many) Fallout games and countless others have no or little driving and I don't think it would really elevate those games.

Would Vampire the Masquerade be a better game if you could just drive between setpieces in a fully rendered city instead of having a loading screen? Probably, but it would also increase the development workload by an order of magnitude for what would effectively be a gimmick that wouldn't really add a lot to the game.

And even outside of RPGs, there are countless adventure and FPS games without vehicles. Doom doesn't have cars, neither does Tomb Raider, Devil May Cry or Resident Evil.

Of course if you're thinking of something like "GTA V, but you can't drive cars" then obviously that seems very tedious, but if you build the game with this constraint in mind it shouldn't be much of an issue. Then you can focus on other aspects of the game.

Cyberpunk is clearly not at its best when you're in a vehicle, and there's no telling what else they could've implemented and finished if they had cut it entirely and focused on other aspects of the game instead.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by nexuist on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:06PM (#25482145)
> "GTA V, but you can't drive cars" then obviously that seems very tedious

The reason why it's tedious is because the map is built around cars. You can't go very far without encountering a road. This makes it fairly hostile to be a pedestrian since you're relegated to walking on sidewalks (or in front of traffic if you're daring).

A city built around pedestrians could have a much different environment, like open green spaces, cobblestone paths, proactive NPCs engaging in little dialogues with shopkeepers, people trying to sell you stuff on the streets, etc. A real "night out on the city" vibe that I don't think any city-style game has tried going for yet.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by brohee on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:57PM (#25482496)
The Watch_dogs franchise is IMHO the one that does the living modern city the best...
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by cercatrova on Sunday December 20, 2020 @10:07PM (#25491777)
The Yakuza games are just like that. There aren't any cars, it's just a city for walking around. Unlike CP2077, the NPCs are actually believable in that you can talk to them, go into stores and interact with them, they respond naturally when fighting is going on, etc.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by bird_monster on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:55PM (#25470527)
I believe I saw on Reddit a post that attempted to map all the dialogue/in game decision options, and found that 98% of choices ended up not mattering. Only 2% of player-choice decided which ending (of the 5) you got.

edit To rephrase, I don't even think it's about the endings at all. Most of the choices in the game do not actual change the trajectory of your character. Most of the decisions put you on the same track. Kill steve, don't kill steve, even if it seems like it mattered to some part of the story, it actually did not.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by chrisco255 on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:24PM (#25470855)
It's not all about the endings though. Mass Effect famously only had 2 endings (which everyone raged about), but the plot itself is interesting to see the different branches in the story on their own.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by bird_monster on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:26PM (#25471494)
It's not about ending, but the branching story isn't actually branching at all. You make a decision and, regardless of what you chose, end up in the same place. The amount of decisions that actually stick, or actually change your progression through the game, are very low. "Do x or y" where both X and Y cannot be undone and seem like heavy decisions, ultimately do not change the outcome of any future story items. Side with Ben or side with Jill, doesn't matter, they both treat you the same afterwards and it never mattered at all which you picked.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by mercer on Saturday December 19, 2020 @11:07AM (#25478248)
Even with just one ending, a game can do branching well for all the sub-story endings that most games have.

Hell, even The Witcher 3 did this incredibly well. Spoiler incoming for those who haven't played it yet.

"The Bloody Baron" quest not only has three endings, IIRC, but one of your choices can lead to entire village dying. And I'm pretty sure there's a few other variables that can end up having some effect at later points in the story.

Granted, it's probably the most-cited example of great Witcher 3 quests, second perhaps only to the romancing options (again, 3 possible outcomes), but I've already come across a few more main and sub-quests where reloading and trying a different option was meaningful.

As part of the journey, they might not affect the ending, but in an RPG style game with quests, it's just as much about the journey.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by oarabbus_ on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:03PM (#25471257)
Not comparable, your choices actually "matter" as you play the game, until the end where it's revealed nothing you did mattered.

In this game the lack of choices mattering is apparent from the beginning. Most gamers may not care but for a certain type of gamer, this is a game ruiner.

For example with ME3 again, I had fun the entire way through the game, assuming my prior games' choices mattered. And there actually were different dialogue options, references to past choices, etc.

The ending was awful, and I will never replay that game ever. But if my choices didn't matter even while playing, before the ending... well that's just an awful game to a person like me. I would never play a minute of a story-based, choice-based game where I know the choices don't matter.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by folkrav on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:13PM (#25470740)
I'd be curious to see this for other games for comparison. The number seems high, but when I start really thinking about it, I can't think of many games where multiple endings relied on much more than a handful of key decisions.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by thaumasiotes on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:24PM (#25471465)
Assuming all choices are between two options, you could make this claim about any game with (five endings and...) more than three choices for the player to make. if one of the choices has three options, two choices will do the job of selecting between 5 endings.

What's the point of the map, if all you're concerned about is which ending you get? If there are 40 choices with an average of 3 options each, it's still obvious before you buy or even hear anything about the game that it won't have 12,157,665,459,056,928,801 endings.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by namrog84 on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:55PM (#25471858)
You fell into a local maxima or made an assumption that got you tunneled visioned.

You can definitely have N number of choices contribute to 2 or more endings and still have every choice matter.

You can have 100 choices with 3 options, and have all of the make an impact on the ending and still only have 2-3 endings. Or any number of endings between 2 and n (in your case the 12*10^m.

Have each choice do a +1, 0, or -1 to some internal metrics.

You could call this a good or evil system, but it could be a ton of different things. They could be doing +1,0,-1 to corpo, streetkid, and nomad rankings.

Some choices might do +1 to streetkid and nomad, and 0 to corpo, you could have any number of combinations. Or you could have 1 choice do +10 to corpo.

Then at the end, whichever had the highest score would be your ending. Or you could do if highest was 10-30 points, you'd get 1 ending, but if your highest was 40+ youd get super ending. Like if you were mostly corpo, but still a bit others, maybe you become middle management in final cinematic at corpo X, but if you were like ALL IN on corpo choices, maybe you'd become new president of some corpo Y.

That way every choice matters, and you can still have a few different endings. And the 'vanilla basic ending' being where you are choices were mostly neutral, or what they guessed majority of playerbase would choose.

But what OP was saying, is that 98% of questions have 0 impact on anything. Which makes them not impactful and not matter at all, and that often is boring.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by thaumasiotes on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:36PM (#25472362)
The system you describe does not have the property that every choice makes a difference to the ending. Most of them still don't. An internal counter going up, without changing the ending you get, is not making a difference to the ending.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by bird_monster on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:57PM (#25472573)
And as I updated my comment, you can ignore what I wrote about endings. Most of the decisions just flatout don't effect the world at all.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by roywiggins on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:19PM (#25472180)
Fallout: New Vegas had a handful of endings, but is nearly universally praised for making player choices affect how you play. It's not about what endings you get so much as your actions influencing what options remain open to you as you play.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by kmonsen on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:07PM (#25471287)
I posted this somewhere else, the game has a ton of interesting concepts but they ran out of time a long time ago and half assed everything.

Cut the content in third and make it 3x deeper and it would have been a great game (bugs and all). Well perhaps not on last generation consoles, I have not tried it there.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by defertoreptar on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:40AM (#25468072)
I picked street kid and I still was confused by why the first part of the story was even necessary. The game could have taken a lesson from Kurt Vonnegut, who said to start a story as close to the end as possible.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by redisman on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:25AM (#25468581)
I'm fairly certain they cut out a big chunk of the "lifepaths" to make the deadline. They don't really make sense as a mechanic at this point. You choose your previous life as one of the main choices but then all the paths merge together after 15 minutes? Just doesn't make sense from a game design or story perspective as a intentional choice.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by freeflight on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:50PM (#25471109)
There was certainly a lot cut, but already back in August interviews said that lifepaths wouldn't lead to completely different stories, but rather add a bit of a different flavor to the same over-arching story [0]:

> Your choice of lifepath will influence parts of your journey throughout Cyberpunk 2077, and each one will have an entirely different introduction to the same overarching story.

Tho it's a bit telling how one of the introduction quests is used as an example for how the lifepath choice makes a difference past the introduction.

In my 30 hours of playing I've had only one situation where my choice of Nomad seemed to make a difference; During a Gig at Kabuki market I could ask another Nomad there about the location of a person I was looking for.

Dunno how that quest would have played out otherwise without that.

[0] https://www.gamesradar.com/cyberpunk-2077-lifepaths/

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by theshrike79 on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:22PM (#25472213)
> In my 30 hours of playing I've had only one situation where my choice of Nomad seemed to make a difference

A Corpo can get the drone easier by talking to the other corpo and seeing through their bullshit. There are also a few dialogue options based on higher stats, but I'm not sure how much they affect actual gameplay.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by GLsimtam on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:33PM (#25470285)
Paradoxically, we call "cut content" what was recorded but not wired into the game. Abandonded ideas are not cut content, same as content that is cleaned up from the release thoroughly and leave no trace of it.

Concerning the life paths, it's just a fancy rumor that something was cut there. True, the origin stories for life paths in CP2077 could be perhaps as long as in Dragon Age: Origins, but keeping them short and tight is also fine.

Why have them at all? Broadly speaking, they may nudge the player into a specific ending. A lot of players vocal on forums would dismiss anything but completing all endings just for the sake of it, but if we are discussing this seriously as a role-playing game, what goes into the decision which ending to pursue matters.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by deadbunny on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:41PM (#25471020)
> Why have them at all?

The lifepath system was a key feature in the TTRPG, obvious handled a lot differently in the TTRPG than video game where they have merged the Roles with the Lifepath.

I think people are disappointed as they were expecting DA:O levels of paths but got 15-20 mins and a few chat options (that don't add up to anything).

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by Wowfunhappy on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:38PM (#25469635)
> The game could have taken a lesson from Kurt Vonnegut, who said to start a story as close to the end as possible.

I hadn't heard this maxim before, and I haven't played Cyberpunk, but this actually strikes me as something a lot of games do to a fault.

The original Mirror's Edge (a personal favorite) is a good example. That game's story has many obvious issues, from stilted characters to cutscenes that look like cheap flash animations, but I think it all could have worked a lot better if you spent the first few chapters as a normal Runner doing standard deliveries, before things started going to hell.

This would ground you in the world and provide a sense of what it's like to be a Runner, so you'd care about preserving their way of life later on. Games as a medium are uniquely good at this sort of thing, from the early days of Final Fantasy.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by noodle on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:53PM (#25469817)
Compared to Witcher 3, they DID do this with 2077. 2077's main storyline is roughly 20 hours long, while the Witcher's is about 50 hours. CDPR is kind of known for their longer story driven stuff, and its my understanding they took that feedback in this game and made the primary quest shorter while expanding the optional quest branching.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by hnick on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:48PM (#25474827)
Gamers unfortunately often make an argument equating number of hours to value for money. Padded open world games are the natural result. You trade a nice, tight narrative for an experience spread thin over more hours.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by stuart78 on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:29PM (#25470228)
Had the same reaction to corpo path. I think it would actually be interesting to tell a story about that culture from the inside, rather than immediately retreating to the well-trodden anti-corp perspective. For a supposedly ambitious game, it seems entirely uninterested in challenging or evolving the rather tired cyberpunk tropes.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by deadbunny on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:49PM (#25471105)
I'm still on my first playthrough (and enjoying it) and am super disappointed to hear the other lifepaths are basically 15-20 minute prologues. I too was really hoping for my corpo playthrough to be playing it from the inside, lots of corporate espionage, dealing with situations with the full force of a megacorp behind me etc...
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by theshrike79 on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:20PM (#25472191)
People's expectations about the life paths were really overblown, they took marketing bullshit and took it as gospel. Then their own imaginations took over.

No game _ever_ has been like this. You just can't get three completely different fully immersive all-spoken-dialog games for the price of one - unless the main plot is like 10 hours max.

Even the Fallout games have a few bigger decisions (FO3 had the choice of nuking either town), but the rest of the stat-based chat options are mostly for flavour. Maybe a few side quests have different endings or dead ends because of your stats, but the main plot is still essentially the same.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by stuart78 on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:01PM (#25474901)
Fantasy RPGs tend to do a pretty good job of this. The macro path your character follows is consistent, but there are choices and class-specific stories that create a sense of character.

I think the question comes down to the ‘role playing’ portion. I have no problem with single character games, and am not a 2077 hater, but would love to see more ambition around narrative.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by lrem on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:24PM (#25472236)
Ah no, that they made clear eons ago - V has broken off with her/his past and is just a merc now. But, they stated that different life paths would give you wildly different experiences. That they would change how others react to you. And one would assume that this would need separate voiceovers. What we get instead is "I used to ride with the Bakkers" "I would never have guessed".
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by oarabbus_ on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:00PM (#25471228)
>The corpo path for example is a bad one:

Honestly your description is an absolute 100% game wrecker as far as I am concerned. At least Mass Effect 3 tricked you into thinking your choices mattered until the very end, whereas this crap ruins the facade at the very start.

Basically, if you care about NPCs and dialogue being believable, then you have to be the street kid. Pretty lame

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by Aunche on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:58AM (#25469052)
Any game with full voice acting is going to have certain limitations. Corpo V still grew up with Jackie, and it's pretty common for people from poorer backgrounds to have separate corporate and casual personas.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by neaden on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:19PM (#25469370)
The key is to accept those limitations. They should have just kept to the street kid start.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by kmonsen on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:12PM (#25471336)
I mean this is they key for everything when making great products, accept your limitations and don't make it the users problem.

It is so fundamental you should not have to say it but you are really right in this case.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by tstrimple on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:06PM (#25472023)
Also known as code switching. Many people do this all the time in the real world. I know black folk who have two distinct accents depending on the context and audience. Same with many southerners that I know. The drawl becomes a lot less pronounced in "professional" settings. That being said, V didn't grow up with Jackie. They met on a run. Corpo V might have grown up on the street as well, but then it's not really a different backstory.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by Aunche on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:58PM (#25472586)
Corpo V never did runs with Jackie before the game. In the Heros sidequest Mama Wells references that they lived under the same roof, though in retrospect that could be referencing the time skip at the beginning.
Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by theshrike79 on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:25PM (#25472248)
> The main quest seemly assumes you are a street kid, your character talk with street kid slang and all, the few times you can talk as if you were corpo, not only the character style of talking changes, even the volume changes, it is very jarring

Ooh! This was it! I knew there was something bugging me about some of the dialogue options.

First you can be calmly speaking about something, picking the lower dialogue options for more info. Then you pick the top one (progress the plot) and V is suddenly angry AF and shouts the question.

Dunno if this is an omission because of lack of time or just bad audio direction.

Re:Cyberpunk 2077 Refunds by gabereiser on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:00PM (#25469075)
The first few missions of Corp path had me almost ask for a refund. Instead I started a new game as a street-kid. Makes way more sense now.