News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by mattpojk on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:53AM (#25330987)
Has cryptocurrency actually ever provided any actual, legal value for anyone other than as a speculative trading platform (i.e. glorified lottery)?
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by qertoip on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:15AM (#25331117)
Yes, absolutely. With Bitcoin people protect their hard earned savings from rampant inflation present in many countries. With Monero people regain their right to financial privacy online.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:55AM (#25331311)
Where "right to financial privacy online" translates as "ability to pay for illegal goods and services".
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by qertoip on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:21AM (#25331450)
Also, do you shut the door in a public toilet? If so, you must be snorting coke, I guess. Why on Earth would you shut the toilet door otherwise?
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by arcticbull on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:42AM (#25331586)
I mean you publish all Bitcoin transactions on a global ledger so I suspect in this metaphor you’re the one with the stall door open. My bank doesnt share my transactions except as required by law in the event of suspicious activity.

But if we’re going to play this game, if everyone walking into the bathroom came out with a renewed sense of self esteem, a nose bleed and a sudden urge to dance, yes, I think you would be looked at sideways for closing the door. What’s lacking from your rhetorical question is context.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by feanaro on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:24AM (#25331466)
Are you of the opinion that people shouldn't have the right of financial privacy online? Or is this just a quippy way of dismissing cryptocurrency as a concept?
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:26AM (#25331481)
It is a way of pointing out that hardly anybody uses Monero for anything other than crime.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by feanaro on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:32AM (#25331526)
How do you know that? And even if it was true, what is the underlying point? I don't see the "hardly anybody uses Monero for anything other than crime (right now)" -> "cryptocurrency is useless" argument working.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:39AM (#25331570)
It's not exactly a secret, is it. Come on, you're not that naïve.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by feanaro on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:27PM (#25337801)
I feel like my point is getting ignored and I dislike this type of reasoning via "common sense, obvious, irrefutable narrative".
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @03:54AM (#25343250)
I don't see much of a point other than "I don't want to believe this because it makes Monero look bad".
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by feanaro on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @05:46AM (#25343761)
The point is people have a right to financial privacy and cryptocurrencies are one possible way of achieving this. Therefore, cryptocurrencies are not a priori useless.

I'm not even talking about Monero or the particularities of its current dominant usage as I think this is irrelevant for the above point.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:28AM (#25344729)
They are indeed very useful to criminals.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by qertoip on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:19AM (#25331437)
That may be your case and so your bias.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:27AM (#25331487)
No, that is just the case with Monero. It is used mainly for criminal activity.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by jsutton on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:01PM (#25337463)
That's objectively your assumption. You really have no way of knowing what it's mainly used for.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:04PM (#25337494)
It's crime, though.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by Traubenfuchs on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:25AM (#25331187)
Ok, so we are at real use number 3. after "pyramid / get rich quick scheme" and "volatile high risk investment", the "evading the bank system, shady financial transactions and tax evasion" part.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by xiphias2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:19AM (#25331438)
You may want to evade the banking system even if you don't want to evade taxes: I was always very frugal and hard working in my life, and just put more and more money on my bank account to be safe. I didn't invest in the stock market or houses, as I thought that they are overvalued. Then one day in 2013 I saw that in Cyprus the banks just took away money from other people, who saved all their lives. It felt close, because I'm also from the EU, and Cyprus is not a 3rd world country....that's when I bought Bitcoin with a part of my money, because I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by howlgarnish on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:33AM (#25331536)
Until, completely hypothetically, some sketchy company creates $20 billion out of thin air and uses it to pump the price of all Bitcoin (including yours) to insane speculative heights... and then the bubble pops.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by xiphias2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:40AM (#25331573)
I have lost and gained back 80% of my net worth multiple times at this point...I don't care...I mean of course it's a bad feeling, but it's a part of life that I can weather much better than my friends. I'm still more scared of bank accounts, as the banks don't have the same transparency.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by arcticbull on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:49AM (#25331619)
So you’re scared of bank accounts that by your own mesure haven’t harmed you. In fact since the creation of the FDIC after the Great Depression, not a single American has lost a single penny to bank failure - even though numerous economic calamities have ensued in the interim.

Instead you dumped your life savings into something that’s demonstrably wrecked you a few times, at one point leaving you with 20% (?!) of what you started with? If you don’t care about what’s in there, as you mustn’t to be ok with that, why do you care about putting it into a bank account? Because of the Cypriot banking crisis of 2012? On a tiny island in the Mediterranean split between 3 countries (the Greeks, the Turks and a pair of British overseas territories serving as military bases from when the whole island was under their administration) known for its shaky financial system? 4% of the land mass of Cyprus is a UN buffer zone between the various belligerents!

I mean you know how that reads right? It sounds a bit like the anti-vaxxers of finance.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by xiphias2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:21AM (#25331872)
You picked the country with one of the best financial systems in the world. Also are you sure? 90 years ago US was on the gold standard. Are you sure you can still get the gold that was promised 90 years ago?

If you see the amount of debt being created and not payed back, it’s just a system designed for risk takers. I was buying phyisical gold as well, but over time switched to Bitcoin + having an own apartment in case I lose it all.

For me just the legal definition of being a creditor to the bank when I wanted to own my money didn’t feel right.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by arcticbull on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:36AM (#25331981)
You’re not supposed to save money you’re supposed to use it to buy assets with value and save them. You keep a small amount liquid in the bank as a rainy day fund and the rest goes into assets of your choosing.

> Also are you sure? 90 years ago US was on the gold standard. Are you sure you can still get the gold that was promised 90 years ago?

If I wanted gold I’d buy it. My comment was about bank failures — dollars - not their redemption capabilities. It is true fact. What you’re describing is a default, external to the banking system that did happen and would not affect you if you used money like you’re supposed to, as a temporary store of value to buy assets with.

> If you see the amount of debt being created and not payed back, it’s just a system designed for risk takers.

None of this matters at all if you buy assets with it like I said. Which is what you were doing. The system works.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by xiphias2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:11AM (#25332223)
Again, not true. You can’t just buy gold whenever you want, just when it’s unpopular:

Executive Order 6102 is an executive order signed on April 5, 1933, by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States." The executive order was made under the authority of the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by the Emergency Banking Act in March 1933.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by DennisP on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:23AM (#25332968)
That only happened because the USD was backed by gold, and the Federal Reserve's supply was running low.

"The main rationale behind the order was actually to remove the constraint on the Federal Reserve preventing it from increasing the money supply during the depression. The Federal Reserve Act (1913) required 40% gold backing of Federal Reserve Notes that were issued. By the late 1920s, the Federal Reserve had almost hit the limit of allowable credit, in the form of Federal Reserve demand notes, which could be backed by the gold in its possession"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by xiphias2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:35PM (#25337080)
If I credit a bank money and it defaults on it, I don’t care about the reasons, I just said that US banks also took away money in the last 100 years, just like in every other country in the world. I don’t trust them with my life savings. You can if you want, that’s called freedom.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by arcticbull on Monday December 07, 2020 @04:34PM (#25337878)
You've confused two separate concepts.

One is a bank defaulting on its obligations to provide you a certain number of units of currency regardless of their market value. This has not happened since the FDIC was created in the wake of the Great Depression.

Another is a sovereign default where the country decides not to honour its obligations to those holding units of its currency or its debts. This has happened ~6 times in the history of the United States, and I do include the cancellation of the gold withdrawal rights as a sovereign default. This has nothing to do with the FDIC or your bank.

I can't stress this enough, neither of these things matter to you if you do what you're supposed to with money, which is not keep your life savings in a mattress or a savings account, but use it as a temporary store of value, medium of exchange and unit of account and buy things with it. Gold, real estate, magic beans, I don't care. This is practically ECON-101.

On the subject of freedom, backing all currency with gold eliminates my right to choose what I back my personal economy with. A gold backed currency has strictly less freedom than a fiat currency. I can today choose to back my personal economy with gold, silver, platinum, magic beans (crypto) or Apple stock by leveraging a brokerage account and a credit card. If you believe in freedom, it's actually what you want.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by ceejayoz on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:32AM (#25331525)
> I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me.

They can, though. All it takes is a majority of the miners deciding to do so. For example: https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/07/20/hard-fork-completed/

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by xiphias2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:45AM (#25331595)
Hard fork is very different from double spend attack that miners can try. As long as I run my full node when accepting Bitcoin, I can choose which node I run (I guess I don't give away a big a secret if I tell you that I run Bitcoin Core).

The DAO hard fork happened because most people with economic power who run nodes in Ethereum accept Vitaly's decision. With Bitcoin there's a concensus at this point that only bug fix hard forks are accepted.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by ceejayoz on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:29AM (#25332396)
> With Bitcoin there's a concensus at this point that only bug fix hard forks are accepted.

There was a consensus that Cyprus bank accounts were solvent, until they weren't.

> The DAO hard fork happened because most people with economic power who run nodes in Ethereum accept Vitaly's decision.

Yes. The point is that can happen to Bitcoin, too.

Is it unlikely? Perhaps. It's also unlikely you'll have your bank account take a haircut via government action like Cyprus took.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by samatman on Monday December 07, 2020 @02:44PM (#25336287)
These are in entirely different classes of unlikely.

What's more, you've shown that you know enough about cryptocurrencies that you know this.

You are arguing in bad faith.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by ceejayoz on Monday December 07, 2020 @03:50PM (#25337310)
> These are in entirely different classes of unlikely.

I disagree.

I'm ultimately arguing that this:

> I understood it that if I keep the private key secure, nobody can take it away from me.

Is demonstrably false, both from a practical and a technological standpoint.

I've more faith in developed-world governments than I do in Bitcoin's miners.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by samatman on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:37PM (#25338661)
For it to be demonstrably false for Bitcoin, you would have to demonstrate that it has ever been false.

Which you won't do, because you can't.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by ceejayoz on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:08PM (#25339010)
Sorry, you’re arguing Bitcoin is technologically immune to a 51% attack?
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by qertoip on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:16AM (#25331421)
That's your use case, not mine.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by andai on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:10AM (#25331391)
Yeah, sure, I mean, if you spend all day shuffling words around, you can make anything sound bad.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by user-the-name on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:57AM (#25331319)
Lots of people are getting very rich by running exchanges.

The jury's still out on the "legal" part of that particular business (spoiler: probably not).

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by neilpmas on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:29AM (#25331198)
Yes - crypto kitties https://www.cryptokitties.co/

I’m not sure it strengthens arguments for blockchain etc but on a tight economic value add it’s true.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by brushfoot on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:18AM (#25331826)
On the contrary. Just because something attracts money doesn't mean it adds value. In fact, the opposite can be true.

In this case, CryptoKitties purchases represent money that was diverted from intrinsically valuable goods and services: cars, fruit, haircuts, shoes, software, and so on.

Every dollar spent on CryptoKitties was a dollar that didn't go to a farmer, a plumber, or a musician. That's not creating economic value; it's destroying it.

It's a pyramid scheme, plain and simple.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by chriszhang on Monday December 07, 2020 @05:59AM (#25331022)
[edit: this comment is outdated. the parent comment is updated now to change the word crypto to cryptocurrency. I misunderstood earlier crypto to be cryptography. with crypto meaning cryptocurrency my comment is not related now.]

I think it has. Worldwide ecommerce runs on cryptography. there are laws and regulations on how crypto should be made secure and managed in ecommerce.

if you mean blockchain cryptocurrency by the word crypto then you may be correct. but in general terms crypto has a lot of actual legal value for it.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by mattpojk on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:05AM (#25331055)
I meant cryptocurrency of course and have updated the comment.

Also it's a legit question rather than a statement. I haven't ever seen what blockchain is truly good for, but perhaps I've missed something.

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by chriszhang on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:17AM (#25331135)
Oh I agree it is an interesting and legit question for cryptocurrency.
Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by simonebrunozzi on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:32AM (#25333088)
Yes. Fabrica [0] uses crypto/tokens to tokenize land in the US and allow buy/sell operations in a few seconds. I guess you can call it "providing a legal value"?

Disclaimer: ex co-founder, left the company at the end of 2018, still in good terms with them.

[0]: http://fabrica.land/

Re:Steve Wozniak launches Efforce, a blockchain-based energy... by intotheabyss on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:22AM (#25331881)
There are several, but one clear use case are prediction markets: omen.eth.link