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Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by aminozuur on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:04AM (#25302976)
I personally love being in highly 'walkable' areas, and I confess I don't spend much time thinking about the climate. The peace of mind I get from roaming around freely by foot, without worrying about cars or hearing traffic, is bliss.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by sandworm101 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:18AM (#25303167)
>> highly 'walkable' areas

An area does not become walkable because there are no cars. First you have to ensure that journey distances are within walking range. That means having stores, work locations, and living locations all within a kilometer or two at most (not everyone is capable of riding a bike at race speeds every day). Paris, at least some parts of Paris, might have that in place. So too maybe NYC or SF. But a great many places are not setup that way and don't have mass transit infrastructure to convert quickly.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by 0xB31B1B on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:25AM (#25303256)
“Not everyone can go at bike race speeds”

With eBikes the number of folks who can go at bike race speeds is incredible. I also know a lot of disable folks who can use eBikes but cannot drive. It’s an incredible technology.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by sandworm101 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:38AM (#25303434)
If we are going down that road, slap a large enough battery/motor on it and you have an electric motorcycle capable of any speed you want. Slap on a couple extra wheels and you are getting close to a Tesla. "Walkable" means not having high speed vehicles sharing space with pedestrians.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by zilian on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:01AM (#25303779)
Yeah just a few extra tons of components, materials extracted around the world per car. Nothing to see here, good luck to your kids.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by angry_octet on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:44AM (#25303533)
People on electric scooters travel at frightening speeds in Paris, often without helmets. Even without cars it looks extremely dangerous. I am curious to know the injury (quadriplegia?) rate.

I think people seriously underrate the safety benefits of micro cars, and the necessity of car like vehicles for older people.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by convolvatron on Friday December 04, 2020 @02:41PM (#25306760)
_I_think people seriously underestimate how much better the quality of life for older people is with walkable amenities and public transportation.

encouraging most people 80+ to stay behind the wheel to shop and socialize is a pretty bad plan. maybe waymo and uber changes this..

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Triv888 on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:33PM (#25305205)
In florida too, but on any motorcycle the helmet isnt needed...

But yeah motorcycles are probably an order of magnitude more dangerous then cars... Specially with cars around.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by mc32 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:07AM (#25303862)
I once saw a couple of scooters collide (same direction), one of the riders fell and looked like they did somersaults -fortunately they were wearing helmets.

Pony is yes even at lower speeds collisions can be dangerous.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by tremon on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:26PM (#25307365)
With eBikes the number of folks who can go at bike race speeds is incredible

It would only be incredible if that number is higher than 0. An ebike has higher friction than a racing bicycle and even the fastest ones have a top speed of 45 km/h (30 mph). "Bike race speeds" (road races) are up to 65 km/h, so 40 mph. I don't think even a Tour de France-level cyclist could reach bike race speeds on an eBike.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by SamuelAdams on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:22AM (#25303216)
Also consider the climate / weather. Paris might be OK during the winter, but some place like Michigan might have very terrible winters - walking around outside is possible but not terribly fun, cycling on icy sidewalks is also generally not a good experience. In almost all cases in the winter it's easier to be in a climate controlled method of transportation, which for most people is a private vehicle.

During the summer months it's great though.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by fpoling on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:35AM (#25303392)
In Oslo snow and ice can lasts up to 5 months. Yet it does not prevent people from going outside as city does reasonable job in general to keep pavements walkable. Surely that can be improved, but I do not see how one can blame climate and not local city government for snow heaps with ice on the pavements.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by sandworm101 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:11AM (#25303910)
>> In Oslo snow and ice can lasts up to 5 months.

According to wikipedia, average lows in Oslo are about -5. That's pretty warm. Salt still melts snow at those temperatures. Even sunlight will melt snow on pavement at -5. But below around -10/-15 salt stops melting ice, vastly increasing the manpower needed to clear roads/sidewalks. Clearing ice at proper winter temperatures requires mechanical means, hammers, if not propane torches.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by joshspankit on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:56AM (#25304652)
Where I grew up (Edmonton, Alberta), the winter is a force to be reckoned with as not only does the sun not melt the snow away once it’s settled in October, but “warm” days bring 6+inches of slush that can then freeze solid to the roads and sidewalks if it’s not cleared before nightfall.

Biking was practically impossible (and very dangerous), and sometimes even walking a few blocks was a challenge. That being said, I’d still advocate for places like Edmonton being “15-min” cities, and in-fact it would make it much easier in the winter when transportation is more limited.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by johnwalkr on Saturday December 05, 2020 @12:43AM (#25312112)
Edmonton (also where I grew up) was actually a leader in transit in the 70s and 80s, although it obviously hasn't kept up. Having an LRT in such a low density coverage, and good (although slow) coverage by bus using a hub and spoke network was pretty progressive at the time.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by sandworm101 on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:52PM (#25305470)
Edmonton is cold, but it isn't Fort Mack cold.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by joshspankit on Friday December 04, 2020 @02:13PM (#25306399)
Never been, but I could see that for sure.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by fpoling on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:54PM (#25309427)
There is no need to remove ice. Just put some sand on it.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by closeparen on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:21PM (#25308196)
My dad commutes by bike through the winter in the Midwest. It's a whole production to winterize the bike, dress up in specialized gear, etc. Only the elite few, most hardcore bike commuters from the summer are still doing it in the winter. Maybe Oslo is a gentler winter, maybe people there just have stronger constitutions, but I do not see the average Midwesterner doing this ever.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by leesalminen on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:49PM (#25308573)
I also know 1 person that bikes to work every day of the year in Colorado. Even when snowing and -10 degrees. Even after getting into multiple collisions with cars. Everyone, including his wife, thinks he’s a nutcase. It’s just not practical around here.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by emj on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:24PM (#25311064)
Being labeled a nutcase for cycling is a cultural issue, -25°C isn't that bad as long as the roads and bicycle paths are plowed.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by msla on Friday December 04, 2020 @02:37PM (#25306688)
It isn't just snow, it's windblown snow which reduces visibility to nothing. How often does that happen in Oslo? Ever?
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by soperj on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:50AM (#25303626)
I have a friend who lives in the Yukon (Alaska but colder), who cycles to work every day all year long. It's all about having the right equipment.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by nradov on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:08AM (#25303883)
It's certainly possible with the right equipment but most people prefer to be warm, dry, safe, and comfortable. Those lucky enough to have indoor parking can go straight from home to car to work without even putting on a jacket. Cycling is going to be a tough sell with them.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by soperj on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:47AM (#25304479)
Sure, but that has a cost on everyone else. Make them bare that cost, and actually make the decision as opposed to saying that the opposite is impossible.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by rektide on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:34AM (#25304265)
I feel like the issue here is 40% individual resistance/convenience, & 60% cultural. The society doesn't have role models for them, of people who do cycle regularly in a variety of weathers.

In heavy bike using cultures, people have gear ready to go. Spending a minute to put it on is not really a barrier, an inconvenience. If there is a practice. If your environment supports it, by having plowed routes for bikes, bike parking.

I think we overrate the convenience & comfort factor. Don't knock it till you be tried it. You might like it! There is some real difficulty when your society self selects to only support & assist one mode of transit, doesn't have bike parking readily available, doesn't have safe paths for biking. And trying to embrace biking on your own, learn how to do it comfortably & safely, when few others do, that's hard. But I think the inherent comfort g convenience of cars is somewhat/greatly overrated. The mindset is that biking is inconvenient, but so many who successfully live it will tell you, it's easy & it feels great.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by odessacubbage on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:04PM (#25307951)
*just as long as you don't have chronic pain or a mobility-limiting disability.

there's also the issue of those with pre-dawn and night commutes, these people are disproportionately lower income and live farther and farther away from gentrified city centers. it is not uncommon to see as much as a 20+ degree drop once the sun goes down and you'd better hope there's no windchill on top of that.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by shortandsweet on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:05AM (#25303841)
What equipment do they use? I'm totally interested in doing this.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Fishkins on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:26PM (#25307361)
I'm in Wisconsin and bike all year. I have a hybrid with studded tires (specifically Nokian) and an internal hub. I'd also like to get a fat bike for fresh/powdery snow, but it's rare that's a big deal. There's of course some trade-off between how much traction/stability your tires give you and how much friction & inertia you have to work against when pedaling. Some people have a few different winter options so they can select the bike that will be easiest to propel but still be able to handle the particular day's conditions.

It's good to have warm clothes for your extremities, but your core gets surprisingly warm when you bike with any kind of coat on. I often just wear a think goretex jacket till it's in the single digits fahrenheit. I wear winter boots, warm gloves or mittens (depending on how cold it is), and a balaclava or gaiter. Also ski goggles for really cold/windy weather. If you don't start off feeling somewhat cold, you've overdressed.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by joel_dice on Friday December 04, 2020 @05:24PM (#25309072)
I've been biking year-round in Denver for decades. The winters here are relatively mild, but we do get blizzards now and then.

I tried studded tires, but found they didn't help much. Black ice is rare here compared to layers of snow and slush, which don't give studs much to bite into. For me, three inch tires with an open tread pattern at low pressure -- plus an upright riding position that distributes weight evenly between the wheels -- gives me the most confidence.

Regarding the cold, I'd say windproofing is most important, and expedition-style mittens are well worth the investment. You won't need much insulation (except maybe at the extremities) once you start generating body heat. Multiple top layers, each with their own full length zipper, will let you regulate your temperature without getting off the bike. That's especially helpful if you have long climbs and long descents.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by soperj on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:53AM (#25304588)
I think the main thing is studded tires, and ski jacket. Whitehorse isn't exactly a big town, at most you're 10km from where you want to go, but mostly it's 5km or under. I could follow up and get his exact equipment if you'd like?
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by msla on Friday December 04, 2020 @02:38PM (#25306696)
What's the equipment for a zero-visibility blizzard?
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Fargren on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:16PM (#25307200)
I've never been in a zero-visibility blizzard, but I assume you also wouldn't drive at that point.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by leesalminen on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:54PM (#25308646)
You shouldn’t be, at least. Last winter I was driving back home from town and the weather flipped on a dime. Ended up in white-out conditions on a windy mountain road. Luckily a police car had their lights on pulled over on the side of the road. We pulled over behind them and waited it out. It was the scariest drive I’ve ever done and I drive that road every day.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by nemetroid on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:34AM (#25303383)
Walking and cycling in winter in Stockholm (or, for that matter, Umeå) is fine.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by numpad0 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:40AM (#25303476)
Sounds like rail stations in walking distances from homes connecting to mega shopping malls is the solution...
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by KMnO4 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:23AM (#25303230)
Not to mention the climate. There are many places that aren't walkable simply because they are frozen for most of the year.

Cars are a tool to overcome that in the same way that air conditioning allows businesses to operate in Arizona summers.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by oblio on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:30AM (#25303329)
> Not to mention the climate. There are many places that aren't walkable simply because they are frozen for most of the year.

Which places are you thinking about? I'm from a place that's quite cold during the winter (-15C some days) plus can have quite a bit of snow.

I don't find cold places to be as unwalkable as hot ones. You get used to the cold, the snow/ice are generally cleared after a few days.

If anything, walkability is frequently about how a place looks and winter time can look quite nice with all the snow.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by apocalyptic0n3 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:50AM (#25303634)
For a while, I was living in Marquette, MI and that got to -10 to -20F (-23C to -29C) many days during the winter, even during the day, and that was before factoring in the wind chill and the 3 feet of snow around you. They'd frequently cancel classes because it was dangerous to go outside if you had any skin exposed. And Marquette is a relatively small town that I'd classify as mostly "walkable". But on those days, walking 2 miles to the grocery story was not something anyone should have been doing nor were the roads or sidewalks clear enough to ride any kind of bike (if you even can at those temperatures).

I now live on the other extreme in Phoenix, AZ and during the summer, you'll see 115F (46C) or higher for ~2 months a year with no cloud cover. That's hot enough that you don't even really sweat while walking; it evaporates so quickly that it can't do its job. We've had people at my office go for walks during lunch and collapse after 15 minutes due to it. And Phoenix is one of the most unwalkable places to live imaginable from a layout/distance standpoint to boot.

But I will admit both of those are in the extremes and most of the country isn't like that, although many areas will have quite a few days that go subzero (-17C) and over 100F (38C) each year. I think a big thing the US needs to do is start rezoning areas and rely less on everyone living on a half acre of land 2 miles from the nearest non-residential building. Unless that happens, much of the US won't be able to realistically implement policies like Paris is.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by coryrc on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:10PM (#25309558)
If the city was built like those in deserts, with narrow walking paths between 2-3+ story buildings, with awnings over the walkway, it would be no problem.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by vkou on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:01PM (#25306998)
> I don't find cold places to be as unwalkable as hot ones. You get used to the cold, the snow/ice are generally cleared after a few days.

> If anything, walkability is frequently about how a place looks and winter time can look quite nice with all the snow.

Why do you walk? Is it to go for a purposeless, leisurely afternoon stroll? Or to on a daily basis, go to your job, the grocery, to the dentist, the hairdresser?

In order for a place to be walkable, you should be able to safely, and predictably, with 99% confidence, be able to purposefully walk to that job, that grocery, that dentist, and that hairdresser, at any time of day - not just on a sunny weekend afternoon, after all the snow has been shoveled.

Any place with snow on the ground for 4-5 months out of the year is a misery of walkability. Maybe your job starts at 7 am, and walking to it sucks, because the snow hasn't been shoveled yet. Sometimes, you need to avoid patches of black ice (Good luck when you're carrying heavy bags of groceries). For weeks, at the start, and the end of the season, you are dealing with absolutely atrocious slush, that has a habit of freezing over-night.

I don't really care about the cold - I can solve that problem by putting on more clothes. I do care about all the other problems of walking in snow.

I now live in a mild climate, where snow isn't an issue. I can, with full confidence, walk anywhere I want on any day of the year, any time of day, and predictably get there at a good pace. I couldn't say the same for when I lived in a cold climate.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by ska on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:19PM (#25307245)
>here are many places that aren't walkable simply because they are frozen for most of the year.

You have to be a lot below freezing before mere temperature makes a city unwalkable. Very few places actually get that cold with any regularity. If sidewalks are maintained and it isn't crazy windy, you really don't need to change your walking behaviour much at all.

Heat is in practice often worse for walkability, especially when combined with humidity.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Zarel on Friday December 04, 2020 @01:05PM (#25305611)
> That means having stores, work locations, and living locations all within a kilometer or two at most (not everyone is capable of riding a bike at race speeds every day).

I've heard that this is already true of everywhere except the US, and the main reason it's not true of the US is zoning laws.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by wasdfff on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:13PM (#25304917)
Id say any american town over 15k people has a little spit of downtown or some other commercial corridor built before 1950s suburbanization that is in varying states of boom or bust. These corridors are all zoned to be perfectly walkable.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by 8bitsrule on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:58PM (#25311596)
I moved into a walkable Seattle downtown-fringe area in 2005. Most needed stuff was sold within a few blocks. Thanks to great nearby transit connects to anywhere in the region, sold my vehicle after a year.

Lived there 12 years ... 120k miles less gas & maintenance. Miss it a lot now (one bus, nearest stores 2 miles, nearest transit station is a 15 min ride away. Perfect for Covid I guess.)