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Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ashtonkem on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:59AM (#25285894)
Saudi needs to do one of two things before the oil runs out:

1) Diversify their economy

2) Build up enough sovereign wealth to maintain their citizens standard of living after the oil has run out.

The first is very hard, because huge percentages of their population are completely disengaged from the economy. It's estimated that 30-40% of working age adults neither have a job, nor are looking for one. An unusually high percentage of those who have jobs work for the government, and somewhere close to 90% of non-oil jobs are held by foreigners. There is immense social and economic pressure against citizens of KSA getting private sector jobs. The biggest "employer" in the country is the yearly hajj pilgrimage, which isn't a lot.

The latter is incredibly hard because of the former. That 30-40% of the population that don't have jobs need to be fed, or they'll eventually revolt. And all of those government jobs cost a huge amount of money. And the fact that the citizens of KSA neither want jobs (apparently) and aren't properly trained for a lot of those jobs makes reducing the social services bill very, very hard.

If they can outrun the de-carbonization of the world, KSA will do okay. Maybe not as good as it was during the peak (if you were one of the few getting the benefits), but not terrible. If they don't outrun de-carbonization .... well, then I would recommend not being there when whatever happens, happens.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ampdepolymerase on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:14AM (#25286398)
Why isn't anyone studying the Arabic states as UBI models? Incompatibility with western democracy? They are the closest to a large scale UBI system right now. Much bigger than those toy hundred people sort-of-UBI-but-not-really experiments.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by XorNot on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:11AM (#25286720)
Because they're not UBI, they're featherbedded kleptocracies. Everything keeps running provided they have the income to maintain the corruption and trickle down at every level to the officials who expect a varying scale of bribes and kickbacks.

The system though ultimately is designed to ensure wealth flows upwards to the top, not to actually build a capitalist economy with a guaranteed minimum living standard.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ampdepolymerase on Thursday December 03, 2020 @10:42AM (#25289903)
But the effect is same. At the end of the day citizens survive on state welfare. Nobody said UBI is contingent on a corruption-free, western democracy.
[dead]
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ampdepolymerase on Friday December 04, 2020 @01:16AM (#25299564)
But do you expect any different from real UBI without any empirical evidence? It is easy to speculate that citizens would achieve some magical enlightened higher state of being where they would dedicate themselves in pursuit of the arts and entrepreneurship. The reality may be that most would just spend the day gaming and smoking marijuana. By discounting the Arabic states, it is doing social science and economics a disservice just because they do not fit the expectations of advocacy and academia. I don't think endemic corruption means that the Arabic model have absolutely zero value, they are hardly the only wealthy country with pervasive grift. Letting political views and biases leak into social science and economics is not helpful at all.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by Shacklz on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:14AM (#25287489)
Because the idea of UBI is that it's universal basic income, which keeps you fed and a roof over your head and other such basic things. I heavily doubt that the mentioned 30-40% of the population are okay to live with the bare minimum without having any interest in doing something to change that; that's only possible if your actual income allows for more than that, which seems to be the case in the Saudi States.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by yourapostasy on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:22AM (#25286785)
> Why isn't anyone studying the Arabic states as UBI models?

Perceived cultural differences, possibly leading to more interesting, uncomfortable parallels than many would like. On the ground in the kingdom, in the field, there is an enormous cultural bias towards status, and low-status jobs are shunned. This is made more complex because of a subtle, more recent cultural bias that emerged from having foreigners perform almost all the work for so long, and foreigners in Wahhabi faith as it is practically practiced (in theory it is different) are considered inferior in an unenlightened sense. A halo effect emerged around private jobs, and now any job at all that used to be performed by foreigners is considered low(er) status.

This is changing rapidly and gaining steam in numbers at the margins with many younger generations. I've met some incredibly brilliant, young KSA native engineers. Many are working hard to reverse the rot the Resource Curse visited upon the kingdom.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that kingdom's experience as unique to it, saying that does not apply to America or many other developed nations. Considering the penchant for superficial solutions, get-rich-quick adulation, and de facto class stratifications in all developed nations, I'm not sanguine a UBI would elicit much better results than a Resource Curse. Norway is an exception that proves the rule, from what I've seen so far.

And I wouldn't point fingers at just nations, either. Even here on HN, where startups with fast 10-1,000X liquidity events receive gallons of ink compared to the inkjet droplets miserly begrudged to to self-funding, slow organic growth companies, we engage in similar dynamics.

Making someone or a nation fabulously wealthy and/or powerful doesn't change them, it only discloses their true character and moral fiber. The uncomfortable truth is a substantial portion of us, whether at the individual or nation-state level, when granted free reign with no one saying "No", are jerks. IMHO UBI is like pure communism or pure capitalism: they only sustainably and consistently work if the vast majority (I'd personally guess around 95%) are truly not jerks, and thus have the means to keep the levers of power away from those who are.

BTW, I'm one of those jerks. Maybe not the biggest douche-canoe you've ever met, but I'm definitely a jerk, though I chip away at that.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ashtonkem on Thursday December 03, 2020 @09:58AM (#25289415)
Because they’re wildly unstable autocracies?
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by pmiller2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:45AM (#25286202)
Oil is not running out in Saudi Arabia anytime soon. They have reserves underneath their desert land equal to over 200 years' worth of current consumption. [0]

What they need to do is stop pumping it, and soon, otherwise climate change will cook us all.

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[0]: https://www.worldometers.info/oil/saudi-arabia-oil/

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by spurgu on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:46PM (#25434198)
It's well-known that there's a lot of oil left. The problem is that it's becoming increasingly less accessible and thus more expensive to extract.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by freewilly1040 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:01AM (#25286309)
At this point it seems demand for oil will run out before supply
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ako on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:23AM (#25286456)
We'll still need oil, not for energy, but as a raw material for production of plastics and many other products.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by stale2002 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:26AM (#25287172)
> We'll still need oil

Sure, but not nearly in as large of quantities.

If the value of saudi arabian oil plummets to 1/4th its value, then they are still screwed, even though "oil is still used as raw materials" and it has non-zero value.

Owning something that is almost worthless isn't really much better than owning something that is literally worthless.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ashtonkem on Thursday December 03, 2020 @09:59AM (#25289422)
Perhaps, but that won’t save KSA.

First, most plastics are now made from natural gas, something KSA doesn’t produce a huge amount of. They’ve got decent reserves, but their production lags. Qatar produced 70% more LNG last year than KSA. LNG is also kind of a pain to transit by sea, which advantages countries that can produce natural gas closer to the factories (e.g. The United States and Russia, among others).

And second, plastic production consumes a relatively small part of the world petroleum production. Here in the US it’s estimated that about 2.7% of our yearly petroleum consumption. World wide only 4% of world petroleum went into plastics (2012 figure).

So even if plastics continue to be made of oil, plastic consumption remains constant, and there is no major shift in who produces the feedstocks for plastic (all wildly optimistic assumptions), then KSA can expect to keep about 2.7-4% of their current oil export budgets. That is catastrophic for a country like KSA, who needs all the oil money they can get.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by hollerith on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:27AM (#25286476)
And plastic does not turn into CO2.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by pmiller2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:28AM (#25286812)
Plastic has its own issues, as does the production of plastic.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by pmiller2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:29AM (#25286820)
I hope so, but then I look around at all the less developed countries out there and all I see is a massive demand for oil. :/
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by yazaddaruvala on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:27AM (#25287176)
As per the article, renewables will be significantly cheaper than oil.

Why would a poor country not purchase the cheaper option?

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by pmiller2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @06:12AM (#25287771)
You tell me why poor countries wouldn’t invest in solar, wind, hydro, or geothermal. (Hint: you have to build the infrastructure first, and not all of these are even practical everywhere.) Hydrogen isn’t all that practical as a fuel, and biomass just puts CO2 back into the atmosphere.

Can you think of a renewable source of energy that’s both attractive to poor and developing countries, and also practical?

Oil is easy. You put it in a tank, then pump it through an atomizer, and set it on fire. You can transport it easily, it works anywhere, and you can run a car on it. I know, electric cars are a thing, but not in the places I’m talking about here.

Electrical transmission across long distances, and, especially between different countries with different power grids is a nightmare.

What am I missing here?

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by relaxing on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:01AM (#25288397)
You’re massively underestimating the infrastructure needed to take oil and put it in the consumers’ hands.

Biomass puts CO2 back in the atmosphere, but at least it’s not increasing the total CO2 in the biosphere.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by pmiller2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @10:38AM (#25289859)
Most of that infrastructure is in the extraction and transport to the destination country. Once the oil is there, all you really need is a storage system, and a way for consumers to buy it.

There's no need to pump it around, at all. You can transport it by truck. Growing up, my family had a fuel oil heater. We'd have the tank filled periodically, and that was all there was. Likewise, gas pumps are just storage tanks hooked up to pumps. There's practically nothing to it; it's all basically 19th century technology that's easy to build, and doesn't require any sophisticated engineering.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by ashtonkem on Thursday December 03, 2020 @10:42PM (#25298624)
That only works for relatively small amounts of fossil fuels for a relatively short distance. Once you start to consume a lot of oil, you really need to start piping it around and only depending on trucks for last mile work. America[0] and Europe[1] are covered in pipelines to move both oil and natural gas. Trucks are only used to cover the distance between where the pipe stops and the gas station is.

0 - https://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/n...

1 - https://theodora.com/pipelines/europe_oil_and_gas_pipelines_...

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by rossdavidh on Thursday December 03, 2020 @11:51AM (#25290969)
From everything I have read, it is already the case that building a new PV plant is cheaper in most of the world than building a new coal plant, and soon it will be cheaper than building a new oil power plant.

Similar to how much of the developed world skipped landline phones, and went straight to cellphones, because they didn't have to build as much connection infrastructure.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by marcosdumay on Thursday December 03, 2020 @09:45AM (#25289290)
You are missong that it's the large fossil fuel plants that need long distance transmission.

Wind and solar (the ones getting cheaper) need storage, not transmission.

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by pmiller2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @10:46AM (#25289957)
Fair enough, but then you're just substituting gigantic batteries, such as the Tesla Megapack, for the vast transmission networks necessary to make oil, coal, and nuclear practical. These are also not trivial problems to solve for a poor country, without assistance from more developed nations.

So, the question is: is there the political will in the developed world to help the developing world bootstrap renewable energy? History suggests not, unfortunately, but I would love to be wrong on this.

Edit: I forgot to mention, as well: lithium batteries eventually lose capacity and need to be replaced. So, storage is essentially an ongoing maintenance cost in this scenario. Google tells me that the Megapack costs ~$300/kW, all in, so, add that to the cost of your renewable energy. [0] Once you do that, if you're thinking short term, fossil fuels start looking really, really good.

Not to mention that lithium is a limited resource, and the mining of lithium is absolutely terrible for the local environment.

Google also tells me that the Tesla Megapack comes with a 15 year "energy retention" warranty. [1] So, you need to make this investment every 15 years. And, unless the prices of batteries go way down per kWh, that can add up real quick.

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[0]: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/10/05/tesla-megapack-powerpac...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by yazaddaruvala on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:28PM (#25291594)
Here is a commercial installation of solar + storage at $0.04/kWh[1]. And it’s not unique, that article links to the cheapest solar + storage in the US at $0.025/kWh.

Additionally, these are today’s prices, as per this OP article the price for renewables is dropping exponentially every year. And if Elon Musk is to be believed (which I do) the price for storage is also dropping exponentially.

Given these trends it seems a no brainer that the developing world will skip fossil fuel entirely. Barring air travel, the entire worlds air and space travel will likely continue to use fossil fuels for the next decade or two.

[1] https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/09/10/los-angeles-commissio...

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by marcosdumay on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:26PM (#25291553)
> These are also not trivial problems to solve for a poor country, without assistance from more developed nations.

Hum? You buy some batteries and install them.

You don't need geographic stability, you don't need stable property rights, you don't need widespread law enforcement. One can even solve it one house at a time, at a (not much) larger price.

What kinds of problems do you expect developed countries to go help poor ones with?

Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by fakedang on Friday December 04, 2020 @01:27AM (#25299627)
Lithium is vastly abundant though. Lots of lithium in the land itself, and even more in the sea.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by Rapzid on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:28AM (#25287186)
But not so much whale oil.
Re:Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? by jl6 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:06AM (#25286694)
Wow, what do Saudis do all day?