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Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by anonytrary on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @11:58PM (#25285558)
I thought it was relatively easy to keep zygotes dormant for arbitrary lengths of time, but embryos are more developed and this definitely raises philosophical questions regarding cryogenics. "How big can we go beyond the embryo, and for how long?"
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by jillesvangurp on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:13AM (#25285990)
If we manage to reproduce from digitally stored DNA, endlessly.

Where it gets interesting is what happens when we start manipulating and improving DNA digitally before we implant it. Basically things like Crispr are stepping stones towards getting there. But we could be digitally creating and evaluating combinations of genes and genomes from very large databases of historical archives of individuals.

The philosophical and ethical questions around this are largely centered on boys of brazil type scenarios. Most of that stuff is driven by popular fiction rather than reality. Another factor is religion and religious objections against stuff like this happening or even acknowledging that this is possible.

But the reality is we already have celebrities ordering clones of their deceased pets. From there to designer babies is not such a huge technical leap. Some religious people might find this offensive but biologically cloning a human and a chihuahua is ballpark the same level of complexity. Never mind things like souls, nativity myths, etc. Now imagine dog breeders going digital and creating new dog breeds digitally before planting an embryo. Not possible today but also not that far off probably. If that bothers you ethically, think designer grains or rice from digitally crafted DNA. GMO foods have been a thing for decades. That stuff going digital would be about as controversial. When that happens it won't stop there.

Mostly the technical issues that make stuff like this unethical have to do with short term technical challenges such as the low success rate of implanting embryos, the high error rates of dna modifications, the correspondingly high number of abortions needed because of failures, availability of stem cell material (until recently this required embryos), etc. This is not a problem for chihuahuas but kind of a show stopper when it concerns our own genetic offspring. Abortions are illegal in a lot of places that euthanize pets and cattle routinely. We're kind of ethically flexible.

There's a good chance that this already is happening and that we simply don't get to learn about it for a while because it is kind of illegal and the people involved are not likely to want to be exposed. But the combination of billionaires, fertility issues, and technical capability makes this more a question of when than if, I would say. Supply and demand are not going to be the issue.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by noodlesUK on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:18AM (#25286762)
It’s funny that you say all this. DNA (and many actual living things like plants) last a REALLY LONG time under correct conditions. We haven’t got any kind of digital storage with even remotely that level of information density that would last that long without extreme degradation. DNA can last hundreds of years at non-freezing temperatures and still be read, and for thousands of years frozen.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by adrianN on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:27AM (#25288581)
The point of digital storage is not that you etch it in crystal and store it in a vault somewhere, but that you can make redundant copies for free.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by FractalParadigm on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:25AM (#25287165)
As someone with a very rudimentary understanding of biology, how much data are we talking about in terms of a DNA sequence? I.E. if we wanted to store a human's complete set of DNA digitally, are we at a point where we can definitively say "this will take X GB of storage"?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by MagnumOpus on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:03AM (#25287423)
A complete haploid human genome is 3 billion base pairs. One byte encodes four basepairs, so that's 750MB in total; and it losslessly compresses to less than half that amount.

If you store more than one genome, any additional genome is only 4MB because human genomes are 99% identical.

So you could store the genomes of an entire city on your hard drive.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by silleknarf on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:56AM (#25287379)
From elsewhere on the internet (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8954571/how-much-storage...):

"The 2.9 billion base pairs of the haploid human genome correspond to a maximum of about 725 megabytes of data, since every base pair can be coded by 2 bits. Since individual genomes vary by less than 1% from each other, they can be losslessly compressed to roughly 4 megabytes."

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by Razengan on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:48AM (#25286943)
Yeah, humans have actually been genetically modifying other life for centuries in a roundabout way through selective breeding and cultivars.

So does this count as a form of intelligent design and would a hypothetical alien race be able to detect this kind of intervention by examining future species?

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by lmm on Thursday December 03, 2020 @06:08AM (#25287743)
> So does this count as a form of intelligent design

No, because the resulting organisms are still very much evolved rather than designed. They still have masses of junk DNA and stupid path-dependencies like the appendix and the recurrent laryngeal nerve.

> would a hypothetical alien race be able to detect this kind of intervention by examining future species?

Yes; we've been able to tell from its genome that brewers' yeast is an ancient deliberate hybridisation of two wild yeast strains, so future aliens could presumably do the same.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by mschuster91 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @06:32AM (#25287890)
> and stupid path-dependencies like the appendix

Recent research has shown that the appendix isn't as useless as it was long thought - there are strong suggestions that it acts as a "safe heaven" for the gut flora: https://time.com/4631305/appendicitis-appendix-gut-bacteria/

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by bobthechef on Thursday December 03, 2020 @09:57AM (#25289406)
> Another factor is religion and religious objections against stuff like this happening or even acknowledging that this is possible.

> Some religious people might find this offensive but biologically cloning a human and a chihuahua is ballpark the same level of complexity. Never mind things like souls, nativity myths, etc.

The Catholic Church does indeed oppose genetic engineering human beings and the like for very well-developed ethical reasons. However, I'm not sure where you get the idea that "religious people" find it offensive _that_ human beings can be cloned. Which "religious people"? Certainly, many people find the act of human cloning, among others, offensive, but _that_ a human beings can be cloned? FWIW, the term "religious people" is rather meaningless. It's not a meaningful category in the way it is used here and just used as a vague insinuation that people of a certain stripe (typically Christians) are superstitious people with arbitrary hangups and irrational beliefs (your choice of words says as much: nativity "myths", souls). Religion is just what someone holds to be ultimate reality, the highest good, and aim of life. In that sense, everyone is religious, so it's not a question of _whether_ you're religious, but how, and whether your religion is correct (I know, an unpopular thing to say today, but that's just a feature of tacit modern liberal sentiments and not the product of reason).

> Mostly the technical issues that make stuff like this unethical have to do with short term technical challenges [...] Abortions are illegal in a lot of places that euthanize pets and cattle routinely.

Why do you think that is? Why do we think that euthanizing non-human animals is morally licit while doing that to a human being isn't? I leave that as an exercise.

> We're kind of ethically flexible.

Either actions are morally licit or they aren't. To say you're flexible is to say that either you're an immoral person to the degree that you depart from the licit, or that there's no ethical fact of the matter. If there's no ethical fact of the matter, then ethical concerns are pure fiction. You can't have it both ways. Either something is licit or it isn't. It may be determined by circumstance (killing in self-defense), or it may be an absolute (murdering an innocent person), but each concrete action is as such either licit, illicit, or there is no fact of the matter because it is a meaningless category.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by literallycancer on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:23PM (#25293316)
It's simply a polite term for deluded. I wouldn't read too much into it.

>Religion is just what someone holds to be ultimate reality, the highest good, and aim of life. In that sense, everyone is religious, so it's not a question of _whether_ you're religious, but how, and whether your religion is correct

Why would everyone be religious? Religious people act on beliefs. Non-religious people act on evidence.

Some people act out the rituals to avoid upsetting their relationships, but revert to evidence based decision making for important choices.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by est31 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:16AM (#25285662)
In the very first stage of embryonic development, during cleavage, all cells of the clump are totipotent, meaning that if you took out a single cell, you could create a human from it. The article doesn't say at which stage the embryo implanted was, but likely it was in that early stage.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by julianlam on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:35AM (#25288649)
27 years ago, we can infer based on trends at the time that it would have been frozen at day 3 (vs day 5 which is more common now depending on the clinic).

It may be at the morula stage of embryonic development.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by m463 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:04AM (#25285586)
It might make space travel really interesting.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by anonytrary on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:14AM (#25285643)
It might make the "nurture > nature" viewpoint interesting, too. If you create a zygote today and you incubate it 500 years from now, will it behave like someone from today? I would guess: probably not, since humans' physical evolution is vastly dominated by their cultural/technological/societal evolution.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by est31 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:34AM (#25285754)
Behaviour is influenced both from genetic origins as well as from environmental ones. The latter includes things like "how you were raised" but also which hormones and stimuli you were exposed to during gestation. Newborn babies already cry in different ways depending on the languages they were exposed to during pregnancy.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by anonytrary on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:52AM (#25285863)
Sure, but I doubt how newborn babies cry is heavily correlated with how they turn out at young adults... Medieval man born today could probably learn calculus easily because calculus is a standard now. I don't think intelligence has changed much.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by inglor_cz on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:01AM (#25286667)
Medieval man definitely had the same genome, but not the same body. Factors such as availability of good food influence your growth. Medieval people were, compared to us, rather small, which can be seen from both their skeletons and various objects of daily use (height of doors, armors).

This indicates insufficient nutrition for most of the population. Famines were common approx. 5-7 years, so if you were one of the small folk, you experienced two to three of them as a juvenile.

And bad nutrition has some effect on brain, too, after all it is part of the body. I do not want to claim that medieval people would be unable to learn calculus, but those with worst food security might struggle.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by OJFord on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:13AM (#25287078)
But isn't that also environmental? Diet of the surrogate mother and child growing up over the years?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by inglor_cz on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:18AM (#25287117)
Oh, yes, absolutely. Subsistence farming in mild climate isn't a great and healthy lifestyle for an ape which evolved as a hunter-gatherer on the equator.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by sam_bristow on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:47AM (#25286592)
I also expect that a large part of the average intelligence that has changed would be due to improved nutrition.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by astrange on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:01AM (#25286666)
It recently (last few generations) went down and then up again because we thought it'd be a great idea to give the whole world lead poisoning.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by dotancohen on Thursday December 03, 2020 @07:31AM (#25288225)
Just wait until you see the effects of >400ppm atmospheric CO2 will do to the distribution of arable land, and thus the effects on those species which depend on agriculture to survive.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by est31 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @11:42AM (#25290812)
Yeah, nutrition is listed as one of the causes for the flynn effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

The flynn effect has slowed down in the western world. This highly suggests not genetic changes but genetic potential being fulfilled thanks to environmental improvements.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by est31 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:00AM (#25285902)
That was only an example to show that environmental influences start very early. Your environment continues to influence you until you die, even if that influence in your final years is of a supportive nature. Many elderly people can live quite well in their homes they lived in since decades but once they come to a nursing home, they often become disoriented.

And yes, medieval people were as intelligent as modern people. Many of the smartest minds of humanity haven't lived today but hundreds or thousands of years ago. I'd put all behaviorally modern humans are into the same category.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by thotsBgone on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:19AM (#25285676)
> humans' physical evolution is vastly dominated by their cultural/technological/societal evolution

Statements like these only make sense in a narrow context. Unless you're suggesting a dog raised like a human would act more like a human than a dog.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by Iolaum on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:26AM (#25285712)
There have some rare extreme been cases where children lived with wild animals in forests and indeed they resembled their social behaviours. (Don't recall sources to include :( )
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by astrange on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:10AM (#25285964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

Some of these stories are doubtful and obviously none of them are all that scientific… for one thing why are all the reports from Russia?

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by sebmellen on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:11AM (#25286384)
The story of Victor of Aveyron has substantial evidence behind it. There are certainly very few feral children, but they do exist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_of_Aveyron

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by astrange on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:04AM (#25286682)
That's believable, but it can't teach us much because it's not an intervention study, which obviously you can't do…

> According to Jean-Marc Gaspard Itard, Victor was a normal child at birth[citation needed] but was neglected by his alcoholic parents from an early age.

Hmm. Did they know about fetal alcohol syndrome then? It's suggested he was autistic, which would've been true at birth.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by sebmellen on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:26AM (#25287549)
That's true. Unfortunately real cases are few and far between, so they're hard to study in any sort of methodic way. Plus, as time goes on and society becomes more pervasive, these cases will get progressively rarer.

I think FASD is a good guess.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by gibolt on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:25AM (#25285705)
The context used within a single species seems like a reasonable application
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by im3w1l on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:28AM (#25285719)
We will evolve a lot more in the coming 500 years than we have in the past 500 years. There might not even be recognizable humans around anymore except for some backwards savages in a reservation.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by danielheath on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:42AM (#25285804)
What do you think is going to kill enough people to create such an unprecedented selection pressure?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by im3w1l on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:47AM (#25285832)
We will deliberately genetically engineer ourselves.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by danielheath on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:16AM (#25286007)
A few people, I have no doubt. When do you think even half the population will be willing and able to afford doing it?

The desperate poor aren’t going anywhere.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by BurningFrog on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:37AM (#25286148)
When/if the engineered kids turn out to be really great people, most parents will want them.

Desperate poverty is rapidly disappearing across the world. Look it up!

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by v4dok on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:09AM (#25286707)
It does, but that doesn't mean that the masses will be able to afford it. Its like you've never seen a cyberpunk dystopia scenario. Honestly, this is I think for now our default.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by tomp on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:59AM (#25287010)
It’s actually the other way around. Women’s hips are getting narrower because the women that used to die at birth (because of too narrow hips) now survive with Caesarean cuts.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by neetrain on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:51AM (#25285854)
When genetic screening becomes common, gene-based persecution and holocaust can happen maybe?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by astrange on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:06AM (#25285945)
Since most mutations are bad for you, wouldn't you want to screen for fewer mutations and end up with less change?

I doubt we'll figure out how to do genetic reprogramming on people. It seems like patching a few SNPs isn't going to do much.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by bserge on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:53AM (#25287669)
Unless everyone starts modifying newborns, it's more like everything around us will evolve more in the coming 500 years and would be unrecognizable to us from now.

Our own evolution is slow, but because of our numbers and tech, we're modifying everything around us at an unbelievable pace.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by HarryHirsch on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:35AM (#25285759)
Hopefully the Falklands will still be around.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by neetrain on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:42AM (#25285801)
There will be no selection pressure.

As long as whether you can survive and make children is independent from your gene, Evolution never occurs.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by est31 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:53AM (#25285869)
There is still selection pressure today, not because you are too weak physically to make children, but because of sexual selection. Many people have a hard time finding a partner, often due to genetic issues. On the other hand, many people have genetic traits that help making them highly attractive and able to give their genes to many people.

So selection is still around, but nowadays we select for different things than nature used to when medicine wasn't as well developed as it is today.

Note that this selection alone won't cause any genetic change faster than what existed in the past. What really accelerates changes in the gene pool is us deliberately doing them. We'll start with eliminating hereditary diseases, but I don't think we'll stop there. We'll likely study which genetic variants give rise to desirable traits and then make those mutations to upcoming children of interested individuals.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by meekrohprocess on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:38AM (#25285781)
Could be a good sci-fi plot. A sleeper ship full of time-delayed embryos crash-lands on an alien planet, and the people are left to grow and develop a civilization with only a ship's computer to nurture and guide them.

Sort of like Lost meets Lord of the Flies.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by rlpb on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:53AM (#25285872)
This happens in The Songs of Distant Earth by Arthur C. Clarke, in so far as it is set in a civilisation that started this way.

Except that there was no crash landing - it was an intentional method to colonise other planets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Songs_of_Distant_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo_space_colonization

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by el_benhameen on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:44AM (#25285815)
I haven’t watched it yet, but I believe this is essentially the plot of HBO’s “Raised by Wolves”.

E: Of course by the time I typed this, there were several other people already commenting the same thing. We’re all unique snowflakes!

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by dgrin91 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:12AM (#25285977)
There is a fun game called Seedship that plays on this idea a bit: https://philome.la/johnayliff/seedship/play/index.html. You play as a ship AI, trying to make the best decisions you can for the cryogenically frozen humans inside, trying to find the best new homeworld.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by Thorrez on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:01AM (#25285905)
That sounds like the movie I am Mother.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by mereg0 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:42AM (#25285803)
That's very close to the plot of the very recent "Raised by Wolves" series.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by chrisco255 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:51AM (#25285861)
The plot of Horizon: Zero Dawn (video game) has some elements of this.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by skinkestek on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:19AM (#25286018)
I remember a friend of mine tell me about a similar plot from a radio broadcast series in the 90ies: two humans raised by the computers of a stranded spaceship.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by paranoidrobot on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:43AM (#25285809)
There's at least a few books like that, though I can't name the ones I've read. I'm sure it's 2-3.

The TV Show Raised by Wolves is essentially this too.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by ec109685 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:56AM (#25285888)
You still need a host on the other side.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by presentation on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:33AM (#25286841)
The first generation of embryos are given birth by the original ship's crew, the second generation by the first generation once they've grown old, and continue indefinitely?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by bpodgursky on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:09AM (#25286360)
There's a pretty hard barrier between embryo and implantation, when it comes to IVF. The cells in the embryos are 3 or 5 days post-fertilization, and they're just working off of nutrients from the egg itself.

Replicating the actual implantation process, where the embryo gets nutrients from the uterus itself, we haven't made substantial progress towards AFAIK.

Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by jobigoud on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:24AM (#25286800)
I think the reason we are not making large progress is simply because it's forbidden research. There is an international agreement called the 14-day rule preventing researchers from culturing embryos past 14 days.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by krisoft on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:16AM (#25287102)
Isn’t that rule about human embryos only? Are there similar restrictions on pig or sheep embryos?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by nathias on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:15AM (#25286745)
These are not philosophical questions.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by IronRanger on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:00AM (#25287404)
We should begin to harvest the eggs and sperm (or zygotes) of the most intelligent and productive people on the planet, and then pay people to bring those children to term and raise them. It would eliminate poverty.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by jointpdf on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:47AM (#25287645)
Nice try, squid robot from The Matrix. "Harvesting" humans (or human ingredients) is for dystopias.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by google234123 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:03AM (#25287422)
Good lucking a significant number of people to actually brith and raise these children - even for a decent income.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by sokoloff on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:24AM (#25288550)
I also have doubts that people who did this for an income are likely to raise them in a way that results in strongly productive adults, even after accounting for some amount of regression to the mean.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by IronRanger on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:23AM (#25287527)
Failing the implantation of zygotes, we could just allow a free market for sperm. Why shouldn't women or couples be able to pay $10,000 for the DNA of men like Elon Musk?
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by google234123 on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:45PM (#25339383)
This already exists
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by OisinMoran on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:34AM (#25287582)
There's a book called The Genius Factory about a failed attempt at this.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by dagw on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:39AM (#25287613)
Google "The Nobel prize sperm bank". Someone had already tried.
Re:Baby girl born from record-setting 27-year-old embryo by blackcats on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:20AM (#25287508)
Genes is less than 50% for intelligence.