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Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by sammalloy on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:45PM (#25249606)
One of the strangest, open questions about ayahuasca, is how indigenous people in the Amazon managed to figure out the formulation needed to orally activate the DMT with MAOI, given the ~50,000 or more species of plants in that region.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by stevenjohns on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:23PM (#25249836)
Considering other groups, at the time, were circumnavigating the world, forging steel and blasting each other with gun powder it’s not hard to believe that an equally intelligent and able group of people that put their attention to something else could figure out how to get high from a plant.

Perhaps this is due to European destruction of the native history of the Americas - they’re seen as primitive groups with little social complexity. I think that if their histories were better preserved we’d be less surprised that they had an understanding of the native plants around them.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by 29athrowaway on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:08AM (#25251392)
Native Americans have a tremendous influence in what we eat every day...

One of the main reasons of why today everyone has a fridge with a freezer is because Clarence Birdseye, the founder of what today is Birds Eye (frozen foods company) was taught how to freeze fish under thick ice by the Inuit in Canada.

He then took the idea and developed it further using refrigeration equipment. Then they provided grocery stores with free freezers so that they could sell their products.

Then you have potatoes, tomatoes and corn. These crops were also developed by Native Americans. Without that effort, what you would be eating today would be similar to the teosinte, corn's wild ancestor.

Potatoes are responsible for a massive population boost in Europe. The reason is because wheat uses more land, requires more work and has fewer calories than potatoes.

Andean peoples had many techniques for dehidrating food... The word "jerky" comes from the Quechua "charqui", which means dried meat. They also employed freeze drying techniques to preserve food, such as chuño (freeze dried potatoes).

In addition to that, you have many varieties berries (strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries), cacao (used for chocolate), vanilla, pineapples, etc.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by marosgrego on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:25AM (#25251469)
All the berries you mention in the last paragraph are also native to Europe.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by 29athrowaway on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:43AM (#25251541)
For strawberries, there are many varieties... some from the Americas, some from Europe, some from Asia.

But the variety you eat today is most likely the "garden strawberry", which is a hybrid variety developed in France by crossing Fragaria virginiana (from North America) and Fragaria chiloensis (from South America).

Other varieties of strawberry are not as popular.

Europeans did a great job further developing crops from the Americas. Italians alone bred tomatoes for every culinary purpose you can imagine.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by sammalloy on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:21PM (#25250132)
This is my thinking as well. There are surviving remnants of pre-Columbian pharmacopoeia for the Maya, Aztec, and Inca, as only three examples. I wonder if the ingredients and instructions for the brew were previously recorded in a similar manner, but then reduced to an oral tradition once religious people like Diego de Landa showed up and started burning anything that might have challenged the new gods.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by Guthur on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:06AM (#25251384)
Non of these actions are uniquely European or religious.

You'll find similar outcomes throughout history and the world. Whether it's nationalism, communism, religion, tribalism or what ever. Us and them dynamics are constantly being created and exploited by various groups throughout our collective history.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by sebmellen on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:28AM (#25251483)
FYI I don't think you're getting downvoted because anyone disagrees, just because it's off topic.

No one said such actions are uniquely European or religious.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by Guthur on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:41AM (#25251528)
The two ancestor posts seemed to imply it a little. But granted I should not have engaged with it as it was straying so far from the topic.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by ouid on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:13AM (#25251169)
What on earth are you talking about? The parent comment is not underestimating Mesoamerica, the parent comment is underestimating the rate at which people eat random plants.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by headmelted on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:12AM (#25251410)
I think the parent was more suggesting that records of how they discovered / formulated ayahuasca may have been lost to antiquity, and might have answered this question.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by michaelbrave on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:40PM (#25256463)
Just off the top of my head they managed to keep nature in a kind of cultivated state, which allowed for greater protein yields via game/fish than any amount of cattle could ever produce, also there were less devastating fires and greater ecological diversity.

About ten years ago Utah was doing something where they were emulating herd movements using livestock which helped to create a lot of biodiversity both above-ground and below, which helped water supply, plant growth, really everything improved and this was almost entirely inspired by how native Americans managed land pre-settlers. I think was called something like the Utah grazing improvement project.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by captainredbeard on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @01:30PM (#25268154)
That concept is called mob grazing or managed intensive grazing. It’s wonderful for reclaiming marginal pasture land and fighting desertification. The biggest issue is the high labor inputs. If tech solves that problem we can probably regreen much of the Intermountain West.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by Bayart on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:15PM (#25250406)
>it’s not hard to believe that an equally intelligent and able group of people that put their attention to something else could figure out how to get high from a plant

Haven't we done exactly that with alcohol ?

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by gwbas1c on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:49PM (#25250546)
Alcohol is a lot easier to come by in nature. Bears get drunk on fermenting berries.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by stjohnswarts on Monday November 30, 2020 @11:50AM (#25255803)
Not really alcohol occurs in nature. Just look up drunk squirrel videos, it's not a far leap to figuring out how to ferment stuff and extract the alcohol. this refinement of a drug is far more complicated.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by dunefox on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:02PM (#25255964)
> figure out how to get high from a plant

Wouldn't you stop after the first dozens of people trying different plants become sick or die? I know I would.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by samatman on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:57AM (#25251336)
So it looks like an O(n^2) search, to try all combinations of two plants where you have to get the intersection right.

However, banisteriopsis caapi is orally active on its own: a brew of just the vine will change perception.

So it's an O(n) search to find the ayahuasca vine, then another O(n) to find DMT bearing plants (there are several), which go with it. A typical preparation of the medicine will have a dozen or more plants in it, with two or three recognized as "active" by the standards of Western pharmacology.

So it's plausible to imagine the curanderos adding a bit of this, a bit of that, as guided by the spirits (or intuition, whatever looked good, your choice), then hitting on the combination.

This might sound like I'm being dismissive of what was most likely a directed search for medicinal plants, which isn't my intention. Just simplifying and glossing over that part, to point out that it's a two-stage discovery, and you don't need both plants in a brew to start using one of them.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by meowface on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:39AM (#25251519)
I'm also guessing any plant with a substance that acts as a MAOI would probably potentiate the effects of lots of other substances. So my guess is that it may not have taken that long for at least one person (or maybe multiple people independently) to discover that this plant seemed to alter the effects of other plants.

Then at that point some adventurous people may have just started trying combining it with every other plant they knew about and every future one they discovered, including plants that they otherwise believed had no effect. They probably would've stumbled upon a lot of interesting combinations.

And if they determined it had a strange ability to seemingly "unlock" "dormant" plants and if they spread that knowledge, maybe some people were trying it with absolutely every non-poisonous plant out there. And since DMT-bearing plants are pretty common (as you mention), multiplied across a whole society it may not have taken very long at all. And it would take just one MAOI plant for them to get the idea that other plants might have this unlocking ability, and just one DMT-rich plant to discover other plants might have similar effects, so maybe they iterated through combinations of MAOIs and serotonergics until they found one they felt had a good balance of maximal power and minimal undesired side effects.

So the bottleneck might be the first instance of someone ever discovering any kind of MAOI plant (this vine or any other). After that barrier is passed, I suspect it might be almost inevitable that something like this particular combination would be found pretty quickly (just blindly speculating, but potentially within a generation or two?).

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by alextheparrot on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:13PM (#25249785)
I always love some of the “Letters to my lord” regarding willow bark (aspirin).

> There is a bark of an English tree, which I have found by experience to be a powerful astringent, and very efficacious in curing aguish and intermitting disorders. About six years ago, I accidentally tasted it, and was surprised at its extraordinary bitterness

One letter, which I couldn’t readily find, eventually reduced to “My lord, I had a tooth ache and was chewing on random things in the forest. Willow bark made me feel better”

[0] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstl.1763.003...

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by thelittleone on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:48PM (#25250825)
Recounting a tale from a Shipibo curandero (healer) with an unbroken lineage:

It's a relatively new phenomena that the patient drinks the medicine. Traditionally, before Westerners, the curandero would drink alone in the presence of the patient. And earlier still the curandero drank a medicine derived solely from ayahuasca vine (banisteriopsis caapi). That is, the medicine did not contain chacruna (psychotria viririds) as it does today in order to bring about visions. It was not needed for visions and to heal.

Chacruna was added in the 1900s due to the impact of westernization in the region and the negative affect on the curanderos' natural connections.

So it isn't necessarily that a formula of two plants was magically discovered at the very beginning.

EDIT: add to this that when you cut the vine, a rich colored liquid / sap forms on the cut part. It tastes quite sweet. It's not a stretch to imagine the first person simply cut a vine, tasted it and decided to do an extraction in hot water.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by duozerk on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:45AM (#25251064)
> That is, the medicine did not contain chacruna (psychotria viririds) as it does today in order to bring about visions

Indeed, but harmal alkaloids - those contained in b. caapi - are not only selective, reversible MAOIs but also full on psychedelics by themselves, as anyone having taken a significant amount of them (usually either through b. caapi or a peganum harmala seeds tea) could tell you. You get "visions" with them too.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by BurningFrog on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:35PM (#25250777)
The general answer to these questions is that before Industrialism, all of humanity lived on, or one mishap away from, the famine line.

"How did my ancestors ever think of trying to eat X"? Well, they were dying anyway, so they didn't have much to lose.

My main message is, you and me are so incredibly lucky to live in this era of wealth, health and progress. We should try to appreciate it.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by jbay808 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:50AM (#25251304)
Amazingly, this doesn't seem to be the case for most other animals.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by aristophenes on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:11AM (#25252335)
This could probably be explained by the fact that most other animals have predators, and humans don’t (at least not successful ones). It is true of apex predators (that are not themselves killed by humans).
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by ergwwrt on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:39AM (#25253548)
Depends where you live. Research what happened to the Aral Sea in the last 50 years..
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by Alex3917 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:54PM (#25249672)
Lots of plants contain DMT and lots of plants contain MOAI. They probably found a weaker or less pleasant combination by accident first, and then once they knew what they were looking for kept experimenting until they found the best version.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by ta988 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:01PM (#25250613)
There is no "best version" there are many reported with variations of the MAOI or DMT source and with other additives. Species of the Solanaceae familly, such as Brugmansia, being the most commons. But there are also some Ilex species containing caffeine for example.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by hx2a on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:42PM (#25250250)
There was a relevant conversation on HN about this over a year ago that you might be interested in:

How do people learn to cook a poisonous plant safely?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48859333

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20874912

Bottom line, it is trial and error, an evolution of ideas and culture over many generations.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by mceoin on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:41PM (#25249936)
Or perhaps they just listen for the right resonance on a full moon... (13:32) https://www.ted.com/talks/wade_davis_dreams_from_endangered_...
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by daenz on Sunday November 29, 2020 @07:52PM (#25249660)
The same way humans figured out how to harness any resource: accident + observation + attempts to reproduce + time
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by mikro2nd on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:51AM (#25252517)
One of the strangest open questions about Tomatoes is: How did indigenous people in Mesoamerica look at a small, green, somewhat poisonous and awful-tasting berry and think, "I'll bet I could make something of this if I give it a few hundred generations of selective breeding."

Same question, really.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by KronisLV on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:21PM (#25257043)
I mean, it seems no less interesting to me when you put it like that. Sure, the process might have been a bit ad hoc at times and they might not necessarily have known about the particulars of what they'd end up with, but the history of farming and agriculture seems pretty interesting!
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by throwaway_pdp09 on Monday November 30, 2020 @05:36AM (#25252432)
MAOIs are not uncommon. Just off the top of my head, tobacco plants and st. john's wort. If this is credible, and I'm not saying it is, a decent list https://www.botanical-online.com/en/medicinal-plants/depress... [0]

Anyway, they're not rare.

[0] that list looks a bit dodgy, how much maoi is in turmeric for example?

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by soperj on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:02PM (#25250617)
Sort of similar to how did the Chinese & Japanese get the right combination of aspergillus(which can cause all sort of skin & ear lesions, as well as ulcers in humans, and is also what is known as black mold) along with a yeast to produce sake.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by victorbstan on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:58PM (#25250872)
I thought “Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the Origins of Knowledge” was a pretty good book.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by bagacrap on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:00PM (#25250607)
lots of plants are made into tea, although most don't have a psychotropic effect. Seems entirely plausible that two separate teas were brewed and consumed which, in combination, caused quite a notable effect.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by CameronNemo on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:36PM (#25250782)
MAOIs have a mild effect on their own, based on what I have read.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by duozerk on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:46AM (#25251069)
Not so mild. The harmal alkaloids in question can induce full on psychedelic trips.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by CameronNemo on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:52PM (#25259524)
I find that hard to believe considering they do not contain any actual serotonin receptor affecting compounds. Do you have any sources or experience reports? I would be interested to learn more. Perhaps they make naturally occurring DMT or other hormones more effective.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by duozerk on Thursday December 03, 2020 @12:26AM (#25285714)
My apology for the late response; my "source" is the vivid trip I experienced taking a 4g seeds syrian rue tea (and nothing else; the trip was also accompanied by strong nausea, though there are ways to mitigate that). That included vivid open-eyes visuals. Beyond that, I'm struggling to find reports on erowid that do not include other substances but I can tell you there are tens of similar reports on the DMT nexus.

Also, you talk about naturally occuring DMT, but be aware that there is absolutely no scientific proof that DMT is contained in any amount sufficient to provoke a trip in the human body, even with a MAOI; it's there, yes, but in minute amounts and almost certainly as a byproduct of the synthesis of something else. Maybe you're right on the other hormones, but if that's the case it's not due to the MAOI properties of harmals either, since we're not seeing people using pharmaceutical MAOIs tripping.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by orange8 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:10PM (#25250074)
Same question, different scenario:

A pregnant woman will often crave the foods that contain just the nutrients her body requires at the time. Has she figured out exactly what her body needs and what foods contain it?

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by jml7c5 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:47PM (#25250281)
AFAIK the idea that cravings represent desires for specific nutrients has been largely debunked. Do you know of any material that supports the theory?
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by orange8 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:49PM (#25250830)
Debunked by whom and where. I'd be interested in getting your sources too.

In terms of material supporting the theory, google "pregnant cravings nutrients" and you will get hundreds of results... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5054961/ https://familyandconutrition.com/food_cravings_pregnancy/ https://www.webmd.com/baby/features/pregnancy-food-cravings#...

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by labawi on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:39AM (#25266748)
> Has she figured out ..

I wouldn't dare call it "she", "knows", "exactly", in the strict sense, but the less-than-conscious parts of a human should have a pretty good though fuzzy experience of what foods are beneficial in which circumstances.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by nondeveloper on Sunday November 29, 2020 @10:17PM (#25250413)
Are you maybe thinking of pica? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pica_(disorder)
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by labawi on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @10:46AM (#25266144)
AFAIK, dirt and feces are rich in cobalamine (vitamine B₁₂), which is otherwise scarcely available in non-animal sources.

Calling it a "disorder" and "largely non-nutritive" seems a bit broad, when it could be satisfying a particular need. Even though eating feces might not be a good idea and more serious examples do seem useless and damaging.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by nondeveloper on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @01:18PM (#25267989)
I also thought it odd that the article (or perhaps broader academic community) characterizes these behaviors as necessarily disordered. There seems to be a logic to it.
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by lopmotr on Sunday November 29, 2020 @11:43PM (#25250810)
Surely you'd have heard about it from friends or family if it was common for pregnant women to have cravings for nails and bottle caps and that their bodies need the nutrition from them?
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by hyperpallium2 on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:54AM (#25251323)
Like a needle in a haystack.

But what if there are many needles, and this is just the one that was found?

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by tt433 on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:07AM (#25251389)
Lots of monkeys banging away on typewriters, too
Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by hyperpallium2 on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:27AM (#25252132)
About 3 keys gives over 50,000 combinations, so not really comparable, IIUYC.

And once something is found, humans do hill climbing to refine.

Re:Compound found in the hallucinogenic tea ayahuasca can gr... by comeondude on Monday November 30, 2020 @10:45PM (#25262071)
The author of Cosmic Serpent asked this question.

They replied “the plants told us”