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Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by izacus on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:09AM (#25185859)
A CPU article not even mentioning AMD (which has made some great improvements to stay competitive with M1) seems lacking and just a clear puff piece.

We've seen major industry improvements this year just due to fabs - nVidia Ampere, AMDs new Zen3 and RDNA, et. al. This article ignores all of that by just doing comparison to Intel which is clearly struggling to compete.

It also assumes ARM is the only way to go which is far from clear at this point.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by fxtentacle on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:25AM (#25185996)
Agree. In my market (AI & physics simulation) AMD has been the default choice for years. And with lots of investment into SSE & AVX performance gains, I don't see these tools switching to ARM anytime soon.

Edit: I didn't know before, but AMD also already has 20% of the notebook market. https://seekingalpha.com/news/3615331-amd-to-take-20-share-o...

So that makes it even more weird to say "expand Apple’s share of the PC market — at Intel’s expense" and not mention AMD.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by Dracophoenix on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:04AM (#25187402)
Is that so? I would have thought MKL and CUDA would have kept AMD from dominating in AI and simulations for at least the next 3-5 years. That is unless you're working supercomputers.
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by fxtentacle on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:37AM (#25187833)
CUDA yes. I'm using an AMD Ryzen for data pre-processing and then an NVIDIA GPU for the actual AI training. The TensorFlow pre-processing pipeline is heavily optimized for parallelism, so it works perfectly on AMD CPUs with lots of cores.

As for MKL, yes it is impressive for some applications like real-time audio processing, but AFAIK with TensorFlow MKL is only used if you don't use a GPU, so pretty much never.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by read_if_gay_ on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:53AM (#25187288)
Why is it weird? If AMD is competitive with Apple and Intel isn’t, then it’s absolutely at Intel’s expense.
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by fxtentacle on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:38AM (#25187850)
Hmm I kind of have to agree with that. Apple is pushing into the market, AMD will stand their ground, so it's Intel that will lose the most.
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by swiley on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:40AM (#25186119)
They're both just applying technology from TSMC. It's impressive and coming up with an SoC/MPU design is a lot of work but at the end of the day these American companies aren't the ones we should all be talking about.
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by jiofih on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:14AM (#25185895)
AMD has not beat Intel until the very latest release, so it makes sense to speak of them beating the market leader.

The M1 also tops the latest Ryazan CPU which came out a week ago, especially considering TDP, so what would it add to the report?

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by kuschku on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:18AM (#25185927)
> The M1 also tops the latest Ryazan CPU which came out a week ago, especially considering TDP, so what would it add to the report?

Only in single-core performance and performance/watt, and the advantage the M1 has in both of these metrics is pretty much exactly the difference expected between a 7nm and a 5nm process (they’re both being produced by the same fab, after all).

It’s likely we’ll see Apple and AMD compete on pretty much equal terms in the CPU market in the future.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by foldr on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:30AM (#25186048)
>and the advantage the M1 has in both of these metrics is pretty much exactly the difference expected between a 7nm and a 5nm process (they’re both being produced by the same fab, after all).

Maybe, maybe not. There's no reliable way to estimate exactly how much improvement AMD would get from moving their design to the same fabrication process that the M1 is using.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by deergomoo on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:27AM (#25186018)
> Only in single-core performance and performance/watt

I mean, the Ryzen besting the M1 in multi-core performance isn't really surprising when you consider that it's a 16-core/32-thread, 105W desktop CPU vs an 8-core/8-thread (four of which are low power cores), ~25W fanless laptop CPU (looking at the 5950X from the Anandtech review).

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by izacus on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:37AM (#25186098)
Yes, but you need to look at performance per core / W. The power draw of AMD cores is higher, but not by a lot.
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by izacus on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:24AM (#25185983)
> AMD has not beat Intel until the very latest release, so it makes sense to speak of them beating the market leader.

Well, neither did Apple - and yet all of the article is about their latest released M1 chip which hasn't even stood the test of time.

Meanwhile we know what Ryzens can do - and per-core performance per Watt is rather close still (IIRC 6W vs. 7-8 power draw at load?).

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by StefanPopp on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:15AM (#25185907)
The expected new generation of Ryzen 5000 Mobile processors based on 5nm in January 2021 at CES :-)

Both, Apple and AMD use TSMC as manufacture and next gen Ryzen is planned to be a 5nm chip too. When you compare the performance gains of the past generations of Ryzen you would definitely bet that AMD could for sure have a very potent CPU next year.

The M1 is very incredible for sure, but AMD is very much on track with their plannings and delivered 3 years in row.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by my123 on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:35AM (#25186085)
Ryzen mobile 5000-series isn't shipped yet, and so doesn't count. It'll indeed be a quite interesting part when released, but see that AMD didn't even ship any Ryzen 4000-series APUs on the desktop (outside of niche OEM-specific Pro editions that can't be bought through regular channels), so...
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by neogodless on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:39AM (#25186110)
> AMD has not beat Intel until the very latest release, so it makes sense to speak of them beating the market leader.

I see this a lot as if it's just fact or commonly accepted but this is a very specific thing. Certain benchmarks would show Intel holding onto a narrow lead in single core performance (IPC) which is only the top metric in a few scenarios where parallelism isn't of consequence.

And certainly Intel leads in market share by a significant margin, so in that respect AMD hasn't beat Intel yet.

But for a large number of use cases, AMD Zen-based x86 chips been a superior option to Intel at least since Zen 2 if not earlier for many uses (of course - heavy parallelism, improved efficiency, better value, easier to power and cool, etc.)

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by fxtentacle on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:35AM (#25186087)
They have been the clear leader on "bang per buck" for a long time. And that's what companies with large data center deployments care about.

I remember that when the Meltdown and Spectre Linux benchmarks came in, my boss immediately ordered 50x AMD EPYC servers the same day. Later that week, we tried to buy more but they were already sold out at our usual supplier.

We effectively replaced most of our Xeons with EPYCs within the month, because the Intel performance became unbearable and the AMD CPUs were cheap enough that we didn't need approval.

That said, I still keep some Xeon servers around, because Intel's software and their compiler are so f-ing perfect that MKL+ICC is unavoidable for some parallelized C++ services.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by Nursie on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:38AM (#25186103)
> AMD has not beat Intel until the very latest release

In terms of processing power per dollar, I'm not sure that's true.

The latest release just gave Intel nowhere else to hide with their "it's best for gaming" benchmarks, which seemed somewhat artificial anyway, seeing as how they were generally using massively powerful GPUs at very low resolutions.

(edit - The Zen2 and even Zen+ lines gave people looking for lots of cores a better path than intel, even where single threaded performance was a few percent off. The 3900X launched around the same price as the 10900K with two more cores/4 more threads)

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by thejosh on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:22AM (#25185964)
For what exactly? Threadripper has been a beast for a while :).
Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by tolien on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:30AM (#25186052)
You can get on the order of 25 [1] M1s (i.e. 100 high performance/100 low power /200 GPU cores) in the same TDP as a Threadripper. Until someone builds a Beowulf cluster of MacBooks they're not just in a different league but playing an entirely different game.

1: Anandtech attempted to estimate the CPU power draw and got to around 10W at single-threaded load and a peak of 27W under compute-intensive load: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste... - that might mean you'd need "only" 10 M1s to reach the TDP of a current Threadripper

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by andreime on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:26AM (#25185998)
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-apple_m1-1804 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=apple-ma...

I see the M1 as strong in single core benchmarks, probably because it's an evolution of the iPad's processor, that doesn't do a lot of multitasking, and kinda meh in multicore.

I disconsider geekbench tests because of the disclaimer: "Geekbench 5 is a cross plattform benchmark that heavily uses the systems memory. A fast memory will push the result a lot. The single-core test only uses one CPU core, the amount of cores or hyperthreading ability doesn't count".

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by anoncow on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:15AM (#25185910)
If the M1 can do at 10W what others can do at 45 to 100W, then yes, ARM seems to be the only way.

Sadly there is no news of competition. Nothing from Intel/AMD or even Qualcomm. Microsoft's ARM attempts to take on Chromebook seem so feeble now.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by izacus on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:26AM (#25186005)
M1 certanly doesn't draw 10W (the tests has shown that it'll pull way more than that on some devices) - and if you see per core power draw the Zen3 and M1 architectures are within 15-20% which can be attributed to the 7nm vs. 5nm manufacturing process.

Remember that AMD is fabricating their CPUs at the same fab than Apple does - they're not crippled by obsolete manufacturing process like Intel.

This is why these articles are such puff pieces - they're focusing on Intel, which has fallen behind by quite a lot and completely ignoring the major changes that also happened on x86-64 front.

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by my123 on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:39AM (#25186114)
Apple M1 eats way less than that per-core, topping out at 6.6W on libquantum: https://twitter.com/andreif7/status/1328775201677565952?s=20

In Cinebench ST, it's 3.4W per core only...

With CPU _and_ GPU fully saturated: https://twitter.com/andreif7/status/1328820823877095425?s=20 32.6W

Re:PC Life After Apple Silicon by izacus on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#25191792)
Last I checked the Zen3 Ryzens drew around 7-8W per core as well, which isn't a massive power draw difference.