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Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by benkuhn on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @06:40PM (#25131378)
This is a shoddy analysis.

1. There's a statistical gadget specifically for doing this—a "scoring rule" [1] which is a principled way to compare different probabilistic predictions. A bunch of scatterplots of random quantities against each other are... not that.

By comparing only binary win/loss predictions instead of probabilities, like in the first chart, you throw away almost all information contained in the probabilistic estimates—if Democrats win a state, there's no bonus for predicting (say) 95% Dem instead of 55% dem.

It's plausible that 538 would actually win under a proper scoring rule, because betting markets were underconfident (relative to 538) in deep dem/rep states (predicting e.g. <95% Dem win in VT, vs 538's >99%). [2]

2. The calibration analysis assumes that different state win/loss rates are independent, but that's really untrue: 538's predictions were specifically not independent because they assumed polling errors were correlated between states.

3. Many of the other scatterplots look outlier-driven and don't include r^2 or p-values. With so few datapoints, it's unclear if they are meaningful at all.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoring_rule

[2]: Maybe we should cut prediction markets some slack here because liquidity constraints make them inaccurate for small probabilities. If that's the article's position, though, they should address this instead of just... not using a scoring rule.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by JoshuaDavid on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:44PM (#25131842)
You might be interested in this blog post, which _does_ use a scoring rule: http://zackmdavis.net/blog/2020/11/scoring-2020-us-president....
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by benkuhn on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:58PM (#25131960)
Oh, great! And the prediction market did not beat polls (it tied with them on swing states and beat them on safe states, as I speculated).

I guess between this and the other commenter who made money betting 538's model on predictit, I consider this pretty thoroughly debunked.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nwienert on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:27PM (#25132127)
You can’t do the analysis on PredictIt, they limit market size heavily.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by thebean11 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:42PM (#25132219)
Do you know of any similar sites that don't limit bet size?

I saw some sports betting sites were offering odds, but not really a true market like predictit I think

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by anonymoushn on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:48PM (#25132255)
Betfair seems to offer most of the same contracts as PredictIt as two-sided markets with lower fees and no cap on bet size or number of participants.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Morizero on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:13PM (#25132404)
They are geolocked for some features, however
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by anonymoushn on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:42AM (#25134133)
PredictIt also appears to have this issue. I must proxy my traffic through my US VPS to use it.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by dylkil on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @04:43AM (#25134901)
augur
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by wodenokoto on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @05:10AM (#25135071)
I still kinda feel like the market beat the polls. Kinda.

In order to interpret the polls, you need top statisticians with lots of domain knowledge. In order to interpret the betting market, you simply read the odds and are done.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by anonymoushn on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @06:31AM (#25135623)
If you went to the market and you bet that the polls would be correct, you made money.

The particular market available to US residents has separate issues about "reading the odds" where events that strictly contain other events are often priced multiple pennies cheaper, the total number of expected presidents is often ~1.1, events with probability at least 0.9 are almost always underpriced, often by a nickel or more, etc.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:08PM (#25131595)
I’m interested in the liquidity constraints theory - Betfair has ~$1bn matched for the most recent election. At present there is ~$700k bid and offered at the market for both candidates (the market is still open). Could you expand on your thinking?
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by benkuhn on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:19PM (#25131648)
Sorry, that was imprecise. My impression is that, at least on some prediction markets, transaction fees (and maybe also inflation?) make it low-return to buy high-probability contracts. I don't bet on prediction markets myself so I may be wrong about this though!
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:18PM (#25132080)
How would the fees make it any less profitable for high probability contracts vs low probability contracts? And could you expand on the inflation theory? Appreciate the insight!
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Akababa on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @12:20AM (#25133464)
If you look at it in terms of risk-adjusted returns (Sharpe ratio), a fixed transaction fee costs more Sharpe on a low-variance bet than it does on a high-variance bet. The variance of balanced contracts is higher than the variance of unbalanced ones (p(1-p) is concave with maximum at p=0.5), so after adjusting for risk the transaction fee is more significant for the unbalanced contract.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:01AM (#25133940)
what’s a ‘balanced’ contract?
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by virgilp on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:44AM (#25134139)
I would be guessing that it's one where equal amounts of money are bet on each side/ there's a 50% probability of the result going either way.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by IfOnlyYouKnew on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:23PM (#25140353)
A market where expected returns are 1, I. e. the implied probabilities sum to 100%
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by cortesoft on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @11:02PM (#25133071)
High probability contracts require you to put up a lot of capital to make a small profit. This would be fine for a bet that has a quick turn around, but prediction bets often require the bet to be placed well in advance of the event, which means the capital is locked up for a long time.... it is basically a low interest loan to the bookie.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:59AM (#25133929)
Yep cost of capital != inflation
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Retric on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:26PM (#25132124)
Opportunity costs on long term high probability events eats up significant portions of the value of winning.

Add withdrawal fees and you could easily lose money while making an accurate prediction.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:13PM (#25132403)
Sure but cost of capital != inflation. And I understand the impact of fees but I’m wondering how they could influence high likelihood bet profitability more than low likelihood bet profitability?
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Retric on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:24PM (#25132485)
Let’s suppose your paying a 10% withdrawal fee on winnings and 0% fee on principle. If your payoff is 10% and you're also losing out on 2% to opportunity cost. Net winning is (10% * 0.9 - 2%) = 7% but your withdrawal fee is effectively reducing your winnings from 8% or 7% a loss of 12.5%.

On the other if the bet paid 100% of your money you would net (100% * 0.9 - 2%) = 88% and your fee dropped you from 98% to 88% a net loss of 10.2%.

PS: These numbers get much worse if the withdrawal fee includes the principle. Then you would be have a net loss of (110% * 0.9 - 2%) = 3% on the first bet and a net gain of 78% on the second.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:34PM (#25132553)
I don’t know how you got those numbers. In all the betting markets I participate in, the fees are charged on profit - so it isn’t related to how much of my money I bet, it’s just related to profit. Win a 3:1 bet with 10% fees? You’re losing 10% of $3 if you bet $1 (ie: 30c). Win a 30:1 bet with 10% fees? You’re losing 10% of $30 if you bet $1 (ie: $3). I’m still trying to work out how the fees are “higher” for high probability bets - they’re always the same rate.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Retric on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:42PM (#25132603)
Edit: Numbers where picked for clarity, the principle is the same with a 0.1% fee or an 80% fee.

To simplify not using money for some time period has an opportunity cost. Either because you could have paid off a loan sooner, or bought a T bill, or whatever. If the bet takes a year then at the end of that year you could either have (principle + opportunity) cost if you don’t make the bet, (principle + winnings) if you make the bet and win, or nothing if you lost. Therefore the cost of making the bet in 2010 that paid out in 2020 isn’t the money you put upfront, but the money you could have had in 2020 without making the bet.

However, the winnings are calculated based on your initial payment not the payment + opportunity cost. So let’s look at a bet that pays 1$ after fees and costs you 1$ worth of opportunity costs. In such a bet the fees reduce your winnings to zero because you could have the same amount of money without the risk of the bet.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by admax88q on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:10AM (#25138422)
To simplify, why bet when the winnings are tiny. There's other things you could do with that money.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by nstj on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @08:54PM (#25145342)
Sure, but that’s a cost of capital discussion not a “fees are higher for bets with higher likelihood of winning” one.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Retric on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:17PM (#25145827)
It’s related. Your actual gains = (Fee * winnings ) - opportunity cost.

The effective withdrawal fee is 1 - (actual gains / ( winnings - opportunity cost)).

So if the actual fee is 10% your winnings are 2$ and your opportunity cost is 1$ them the effective fee is 20%. In other words a 10% withdrawal fee dropped your actual gains from 1$ to 80 cents.

However if your winnings where 1,000$ then your effective withdrawal fee is 10.01% dropping your actual gains from 999$ to 899$. In other words fees are more impactful on high probability bets than low probability bets.

Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by b0b10101 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:54PM (#25131930)
yep, predictit takes a 5% fee on profit + 10% on withdrawals
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by bhitov on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @09:25PM (#25132493)
Other way around. 10% profit 5% withdrawal.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by tempestn on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @04:20AM (#25134739)
They also only looked at a single election where Republicans outperformed polls across the board. If you look at the 2016 election, 538 was more bullish on Republicans than betting markets, and came out ahead.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by noxvilleza on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:25PM (#25132114)
In addition to just using Brier scores (or alternatives) to evaluate their performance, I'm also interested in seeing how 538's underlying Monte Carlo models shift based on x% of error/uncertainty? (for example instead of evaluating a polling advantage as a single value K within a single simulation rather consider it a normally distributed variable).
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by Closi on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:24PM (#25131681)
Also betting markets are highly influenced by both polls and published election models, so it’s hard to say that they ‘beat’ them while also being influenced by them.
Re:Prediction Markets Beat Polls by birken on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:05PM (#25131572)
Not to mention that 538 gave Biden a ~90% chance to win right before the election, whereas betting markets gave Biden a ~60-65% chance to win.

So if you go by the most important metric of what was trying to be predicted, 538 was far more accurate for the one giant data point.