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Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Saturday November 14, 2020 @06:36PM (#25096688)
Most "alarmist" articles have two points you cannot really ignore, not if you don't want to end up living in interesting times one day.

1) Even plain access logs — basically what a HTTP request, or a TCP connection can tell you — is a lot. Gather those for a couple of days, and you have a good map of the user. More so if you have an ID of machine and the actual executable hash.

2) "But we are the good guys" is a non-defense. Good guys can turn bad, they can be coerced by the bad guys, and

3) since the requests fly out in plain text, there is an unknown number of questionably-aligned guys in between capable of sniff your data. You only need one bad enough guy to get into serious trouble if that's what they want.

This is not alarmist. It's just common sense. The same common sense that you use to avoid certain neighborhoods at certain times of night.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by clankyclanker on Saturday November 14, 2020 @10:13PM (#25097897)
If you have #1 and the ability to collect #3, then you’re already an intermediary between the user and Apple.

At that point, what’s to prevent you from providing unacceptably slow service for the certs of those apps you don’t like and soft-locking the user out of particular apps on their own device?

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by pushrax on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:15AM (#25099023)
The fact that this slows down devices boils down to a rushed or simply incompetent implementation.

It's sensible to require waiting for a certificate check the first time an app is launched, but after that, the cache validity should be indefinite, and updates should occur asynchronously in batches.

The timeout settings were also excessive.

Can't forget the blatant lack of encryption. They either forgot or thought it would be too much effort to set up.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Sunday November 15, 2020 @04:38AM (#25099678)
When you have a good broadband, it gets so easy to assume that internets grow on them trees, latency is negligible, and servers are fast and always up.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by angry_octet on Sunday November 15, 2020 @05:00AM (#25099797)
Yes it is ridiculous that an internet query is in the path of starting a local app for the first time in X hours. If it has to be done, it could be done in a daily batch for all apps when the connection is idle, and on install. Using bloom filters to check for recent invalidations would be even better.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:31AM (#25100337)
How many false positives are possible with bloom filters? In the described use case, you don’t want even one.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by sneak on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:41AM (#25101093)
A positive on on the bloom filter is just an indicator that you do the bigger, more expensive (and privacy-reducing) check, like an encrypted OCSP query for that specific certificate. It's not the final verdict, specifically because of the risk of false positives. Bloom filters are a way of making it so that you don't have to do that bigger, privacy-leaking query every time.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by Clubber on Saturday November 14, 2020 @08:18PM (#25097217)
>"But we are the good guys"

Also, this is what every bad guy believed him or herself to be throughout the history of humanity.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by sasaf5 on Saturday November 14, 2020 @07:14PM (#25096887)
@2) + good guys can be hacked.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by sebastien_b on Saturday November 14, 2020 @07:41PM (#25097017)
Or, simply assume that there really are no “good guys”.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by amelius on Saturday November 14, 2020 @07:53PM (#25097069)
Especially where money is involved.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by boogies on Saturday November 14, 2020 @08:40PM (#25097363)
IMO especially when stock holders wanting a monetary return on investment are involved. I give my money to the FSF every month, because they provide value to me, but not because I expect them to surreptitiously extract it from others and give it to me as cash dividends.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by sebastien_b on Saturday November 14, 2020 @09:11PM (#25097574)
I think that's one of the big problems with public companies, especially those that have "regular people" as their main money maker (the "consumers") - invariably, the company's needs (duty) to make money for their real customers (the shareholders) will take precedence over what would be "the best thing" for consumers.

I wish we could do away with the whole "public company" thing - just imagine how much better Facebook, Google, and countless other companies (yes, Apple too) would be if they were private, and more accountable to their users.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by tsimionescu on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:54AM (#25099465)
Privately owned companies are not accountable to their users, they are accountable to their owners, just like publically traded ones. It's just that they have fewer owners, and you sometimes get owners with really nice ideas. Other times, you get even more tyrannical owners.

Instead, what would be really nice is imagining how those companies would fare as worker-owned companies. Especially with these big internet behemoths, where the entire families of all the workers are users, the standard of user care would easily sky-rocket.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Sunday November 15, 2020 @06:06AM (#25100187)
Or not, as Soviet Union with its workers-owned factories can tell. Ever rode a Soviet car that wasn’t copypasted from Fiat?
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by tsimionescu on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:35AM (#25101059)
The Soviet Union didn't have even 1 worker owned factory, unless you're talking about the time before Lenin ever came to power. The factories were owned by the state, which in turn was owned by a dictator and his political apparatus - workers had less freedom to control the factory than Amazon warehouse workers.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Sunday November 15, 2020 @09:03AM (#25101241)
But they told people they had been worker-owned, and many actually believed it!
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by tsimionescu on Sunday November 15, 2020 @07:27PM (#25106475)
Yes, they were a despicable regime, and unfortunately their name still mars the idea of socialism. They also claimed they were democratic, and surely many believed that as well, but we haven't let that ruin democracy, so we shouldn't let their laughable claims to socialism ruin socialism.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Monday November 16, 2020 @11:34AM (#25113649)
You had like 120 years to create a version of socialism that didn't suck, or didn't degenerate into a form of oligarchy under whatever guise du jour you please. I'd call it a failed experiment by now. You know why?

Because "true socialism" (like your true Scotsman) requires ideal übermenschen on all levels everywhere. This is not how the humankind works. Humankind is full of flawed, sometimes outright malicious people, and you have to deal with that.

Most versions of socialism at some point came up with a need to breed ideal happy socialist people that won't keep breaking their paradise all the time. And until this Übermensch is born, they chose to break and bend the rest into behaving, like bonsai trees. Of course, Dear Leader and their team is exempted from being broken or bent, and many others aspire to become like them. This is how every socialist rule to date grew into a totalitarian oligarchy.

Thank you but no thank you. I'd better choose a form of government that adapts to and deals with people as they are, and doesn't try to force them into some better version according to their understanding.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by ithkuil on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:46PM (#25103578)
Wikipedia says:

> The Niva was described by its designers as a "Renault 5 put on a Land Rover chassis"

So I guess one example of a car that was not copypasted from fiat?

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by jmnicolas on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:41AM (#25121405)
> Ever rode a Soviet car that wasn’t copypasted from Fiat?

Isn't the Volga a copy of a Mercedes? ;)

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by smabie on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:34AM (#25098555)
private companies are still accountable to their shareholders. But I do think that the very public number of share price encourages slightly different behavior than a private, illiquid, and probably out of date number
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by stjohnswarts on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:10PM (#25106806)
Yeah not sure what the poster is trying to say here. Both distinctions almost invevitably result in doing anything that is legal to maximize profits (and oftentimes illegal or gray at best). However I haven't seen anyone propose a decent alternative to corporation status for such large entities. The other option is state owned and that is almost always an utter failure. Even China allows their "state owned" businesses a lot of leeway to account for the ups and downs of capitalism and market forces.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by kzrdude on Saturday November 14, 2020 @07:49PM (#25097051)
There is no executable hash in the request, so I don't understand why you bring it up
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by xvector on Saturday November 14, 2020 @08:06PM (#25097139)
Developer certificate IDs are almost a 1:1 match with which app you’re running.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by andai on Saturday November 14, 2020 @09:52PM (#25097798)
To use one of the original examples, how many different applications are signed with the developer key of the Tor browser project?
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by e_proxus on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:44AM (#25099418)
I don’t know the answer to that, but I would assume they are all Tor related so that tells me everything I need to know about a user anyway.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by WesolyKubeczek on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:58AM (#25099212)
There are also notarization requests, and those transmit more than enough information about your executable.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by tshaddox on Saturday November 14, 2020 @08:20PM (#25097234)
> "But we are the good guys" is a non-defense. Good guys can turn bad, they can be coerced by the bad guys,

That’s true, but not very useful, since if Apple turns bad or is coerced by the bad guys, they could just issue an OS update that begins doing new bad things anyway.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by danShumway on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:34AM (#25098549)
A couple of problems:

- This give Apple access to data right now. If they turn evil in the future, they have access to data from the past, which gives them more leverage.

- The security industry (overall) pays attention to Apple updates. If Apple turned evil in the future by issuing an OS update, someone might notice it happening. But if they start organizing this data and handing it off to the government, they don't need to change anything public or issue an update. They can do it all serverside without anybody noticing.

- One of the ways we tell whether a company is trending evil is that we pay attention to how its willingness to invade people's privacy evolves over time. This is a more subtle point.

Imagine that I was administering your phone. There's trust involved in that kind of relationship; if I turned evil, I could install some tracking software or viruses and violate your privacy. So imagine that one day you find out I have installed tracking software on your phone, but when you ask me about it, I say, "it doesn't matter whether or not the tracking software is installed on the phone. If you trust me not to invade your privacy, then you might as well trust me not to look at the data the software is collecting. As long as you trust me, it makes no difference what I install on your phone, since you can trust me not to use that software to violate your privacy."

You probably wouldn't be satisfied by that excuse. In reality, seeing that I am now the type of person who is willing to install tracking software on your phone should give a suspicion that I have either already turned evil or that I am on my way to turning evil.

So similarly with Apple, it's true that trusting Apple means putting them in a position where they could start collecting people's private data. The fact that we have now seen them start collecting private data means that we should be more suspicious that Apple either is already evil, or at least that it is more willing now to play with evil ideas than it used to be.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by tshaddox on Sunday November 15, 2020 @02:45AM (#25099149)
It seems like several people are assuming that Apple is storing the data now and that it is personally identifiable. My assumption was that, of course they would not do that. But of course I could be wrong.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by danShumway on Sunday November 15, 2020 @03:39AM (#25099399)
I think the bigger point here is, if Apple started to store the data and make it personally identifiable, you would have no way of knowing that they had.

They wouldn't need to install anything new on your computer to start tracking you in more detail or building a user profile on you, they could just start doing it invisibly behind the scenes on a server someplace. That's a big deal, because even though you're trusting them to administer your device, if they did start pushing out spyware, there's a good chance a security researcher would notice it. But there's no way for us to know what Apple does with this data once it leaves our devices.

Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by tshaddox on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:49PM (#25103108)
I just don’t think that’s a very big deal. Did anyone notice when Apple shipped this update? Maybe so, but it certainly wasn’t a huge ongoing issue in the community. It seems pretty clear that they could get away with a minor evil update if they decided to turn evil.
Re:Does Apple really log every app you run? A technical look by bzbz on Saturday November 14, 2020 @08:33PM (#25097325)
But they can’t retroactively gain data. So it’s not the same. Besides, security is something you apply in layers.