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Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by ksec on Saturday November 14, 2020 @01:02PM (#25094117)
Intel's current design are 1-3 years late depending on which roadmap and sector you are counting. Caused by their 10nm delay.

Intel had Tigerlake / WillowCove Design but they cant ship it. They also have Golden Cove. If you have put the design they were suppose to be using now, on a IPC basis Intel might still be in the lead.

Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by trepetti on Saturday November 14, 2020 @02:28PM (#25094886)
It has really been cascading process delays dating back to 2014 when 14 nm got pushed back when Broadwell was supposed to launch, too.
Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by supernova87a on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:11AM (#25100913)
What takes time to bring a chip to market? As in the question, if you know exactly what needed to be designed (in concept), how long would it take you to have a fab turning out units?

Is it the work to figure out how to lay down the component blocks on the die and all the circuit routing? Is it figuring out how to assemble the power-efficient components from the Arm library? Does that take years? Is it the instruction set? Is it the planning for manufacturing capacity?

I'm just curious to know what the actual work and division of labor / time is to "make a chip".

I would love to know for example:

-- Initial design, 10 people, 1 year

-- Prototype runs, 5 people, 6 months

-- Final design, 5 people, 1 year

-- etc etc.

-- Acquiring fab capacity / manufacturing hardware, 10 people, 1 year

-- etc etc.

But sounds like there's no way Intel or others can just "leapfrog" even if they knew what needed to be done and could abandon their prior choices.

Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by ksec on Sunday November 15, 2020 @12:27PM (#25102870)
>But sounds like there's no way Intel or others can just "leapfrog" even if they knew what needed to be done and could abandon their prior choices.

At best It take one year to build a Fab. It takes another one just to plan to built it. That is assuming you get the regulation approval with zero delay.

Building a Fab means absolutely nothing if you cant get the process to yield. Look at Samsung Foundry in the past 3- 5 years.

Intel's Leapfrog chances was their Intel Custom Foundry. Had they not mess that one up they would have a Fighting chance. Even if they had a Design that Leapfrog Apple's M1 today, it would still be let down by their 10nm SuperFin Process.

Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by f6v on Saturday November 14, 2020 @01:36PM (#25094436)
What about other ARM chips?
Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by nolok on Saturday November 14, 2020 @02:26PM (#25094867)
Other ARM chips are aiming for smartphone/tablet and are more than enough for this. No one using samsung latest top phone is thinking "if only that phone was 15% faster ! this is a major issue".

No one makes ARM chips for laptop, because of the chicken and egg issue. Windows on ARM going mainline could change it.

Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by beagle3 on Saturday November 14, 2020 @03:27PM (#25095353)
Amazon’s Graviton2 (originally from Annapurna Labs) is apparently delivering significant efficiency on the server side. Laptops will be there soon enough even without windows.
Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by HeadsUpHigh on Saturday November 14, 2020 @05:59PM (#25096481)
Hopefully without windows. It would be nice if we could get our own little *nix corner.
Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by treesknees on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:09PM (#25115673)
We've seen some of this already, for example with Microsoft's SQ1/SQ2 SoC manufactured with Qualcomm for the Surface Pro X series of laptops. They already emulate x86 well enough to run apps compiled for 32bit x86, and they should be coming out with 64bit support soon.

Once Microsoft is shipping these layers within Windows, it's only a matter of time before the use of ARM CPUs in more laptops takes off.

Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by robotnikman on Monday November 16, 2020 @02:12PM (#25115711)
Does windows on ARM support emulation of x86 apps? Probably the biggest advantage for windows right now is tat you can run apps from 20 years ago perfectly fine, and of course the large library of playable games built over the years.
Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by petra on Saturday November 14, 2020 @01:35PM (#25094420)
So basically given the same process, all companies have almost a similar offering?
Re:Intel's disruption is now complete by atty on Saturday November 14, 2020 @02:30PM (#25094905)
Disclaimer: I’m a chip design enthusiast and not a professional, but this is how I understand things right now.

If you read the anandtech article describing the A14/M1 chips, it seems that the ARM ISA lets Apple do some things that are either exceptionally hard or impossible on x86, like making individual cores much “wider” in terms of instruction decode, allowing the A14/M1 cores to do significant parallel execution. This allows their cores to be significantly more efficient in terms of instructions per clock cycle. To be clear this isn’t just the benefits of ARM - Apple is far ahead of other ARM designers as well. On the other hand, the wider the execution pipeline, generally the slower the cores have to be clocked (Im actually not sure why this is, to be honest). This is part of how Intel is able to produce chips in the 5.0+ GHz range.

So it’s not that every designer converges to the same design (internally, they’re quite different). Instead, what’s happening is that all the relevant trade offs (pipeline width and depth, ISA, fab tech, power targets, etc) are leaving competitors within an order of magnitude in performance. And the question of who’s going to take the lead is a question of who’s executing best on all these fronts, and who’s currently got a lot of talent working on areas that will see continued improvement.

But whatever happens, I wouldn’t bet against Apple. Their team has been delivering improvements like clockwork, year over year for quite a long time now.