News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by kzrdude on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:54PM (#24873264)
Should it stand up to legal scrutiny though?

What does it matter if I play the beatles on youtube by watching in a web browser or watching an .mp4 file that I just downloaded? It's functionally the same.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by roywiggins on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:57PM (#24874705)
The intent matters. Browsers don't make it easy to get ahold of a copy of the file that you can share, youtube-dl does. Add that to a bad README and that's something that a court might treat very differently from a web browser.

This is not far off from how it's legal to carry lockpicks but it's often not legal to carry lockpicks around with the intention of using them to commit a crime. Either way you're carrying the same lockpicks, but if the court decides that you were carrying them with bad intentions, you're in trouble.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by tyzoid on Saturday October 24, 2020 @12:01AM (#24876840)
But it's perfectly legal to screencapture a video platform in full-screen, and previous courts have ruled that recording a stream you otherwise have access to is allowed (the VCR/TiVo lawsuits). The question here is whether youtube-dl is a tool that allows for the bypassing of DRM, as the RIAA is asserting that youtube has DRM on their videos that prevent automated tools from scraping the website.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by curryst on Saturday October 24, 2020 @01:30AM (#24877175)
> The intent matters. Browsers don't make it easy to get ahold of a copy of the file that you can share, youtube-dl does. Add that to a bad README and that's something that a court might treat very differently from a web browser.

I can't say for YouTube specifically (I haven't tried, I suspect they have the talent to make it actually difficult), but browsers do make it remarkably easy to extract most forms of media from a website. Even websites that attempt to hide it have to embed it somewhere. Whether you feel like it's easier to install Firefox and figure out how to extract the media, or figure out how to install Python and pip and then run youtube-dl is up to you.

There are likely even tutorials up by Mozilla somewhere about how to use the dev tools to pull an image (though I assume they're not stupid enough to do it on material they don't have rights to).

There are many reasons one might want to use youtube-dl. Furthermore, there are many creators that either don't care or are happy that you're downloading their stuff.

If we want to make analogies, every gun shop in America sells guns and human shaped targets. Do they have the intent to encourage people to murder other people? It is a tool that can be used for illegal purposes. They might even have examples of how you can do such a thing (as do gun manufacturers, lockpick manufacturers, security exploit announcements, etc, etc). Why would that make the tool illegal? The argument might hold if the only possible use of it is illegal; that puts it among the ranks of things we deem illegal to merely possess, like fully automatic weapons. I'm not buying the RIAA's argument that youtube-dl is so dangerous to society that we can't trust anyone to use it legally.

> This is not far off from how it's legal to carry lockpicks but it's often not legal to carry lockpicks around with the intention of using them to commit a crime.

No one has demonstrated intent. The publishers have demonstrated that it could potentially be used in an illegal manner (depending on your jurisdiction). They aren't going after someone who downloaded youtube-dl and is trying to use it to pirate things. They're going after the lockpick manufacturer because they have a tutorial on using their lockpicks on their site, and people could use that to commit crimes.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by bzbarsky on Sunday October 25, 2020 @01:10AM (#24883995)
YouTube uses things like DASH, where they download pieces of the video from the server a bit at a time and feed into the browser's video pipeline. There's no single link to the entire video, necessarily; you have to piece together the bits. This is one of the things that allows changing quality mid-video, btw.

Furthermore, the video and audio are served separately so that codecs can be mixed and matched on the client side, and the same audio can be used for different quality video streams, etc. One of the things youtube-dl deals with is grabbing both and muxing into a single container.

So yes, extracting things from YouTube is not trivial at all.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by 542354234235 on Monday October 26, 2020 @11:46AM (#24897432)
> This is not far off from how it's legal to carry lockpicks but it's often not legal to carry lockpicks around with the intention of using them to commit a crime.

This is pretty far from lock picking tools. The crime commits with lock picking tools involves physically breaking into someone private property to either steal physical items or do physical harm to people. Breaking and entering and copyright law are not comparable. A closer analogy is smuggling a camera into a concert to break copyright law by recording a concert. Canon or Nikon are not responsible for what I did, just because they made the technology that allows users to record any content, which may or may not include copyrighted material. Even if Canon included how well their camera performed at recording concerts, that doesn’t suddenly make them responsible. Youtube-dl is much closer to a digital version of a camera than to lock picking tools.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by marcinzm on Friday October 23, 2020 @03:59PM (#24873320)
The former gives money to the original content owner for every listen while the latter does not. Which is why you're able to listen to it on youtube without having to personally pay someone.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by lutorm on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:21PM (#24873626)

  Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 
  U.S. 417 (1984), also known as the “Betamax case”, is a 
  decision by the Supreme Court of the United States which 
  ruled that the making of individual copies of complete 
  television shows for purposes of time shifting does not 
  constitute copyright infringement, but is fair use.[1][2] 
  The Court also ruled that the manufacturers of home video 
  recording devices, such as Betamax or other VCRs (referred 
  to as VTRs in the case), cannot be liable for infringement.
How is downloading something from youtube for later offline viewing ("time-shifting") in any way different from recording a tv show?
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by xxpor on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:42PM (#24874554)
The Betamax case was pre-DMCA. The law has changed. I'm not saying it's invalid, just that there's a different argument to be made.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by larrik on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:24PM (#24873666)
The Betamax case was about stuff broadcast over public airwaves, whereas this is a medium that the RIAA barely tolerates, rather than the (ideal) main distribution channel. Seems like a big enough difference to me.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by ethanwillis on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:59PM (#24874108)
The ruling there doesn't seem to rule out making copies of shows from a cable network, which are not exactly public airwaves in the same sense I think you mean.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by throwaway17_17 on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:04PM (#24874154)
I don’t see the fact that the RIAA dislikes internet based streaming as relevant to the analysis. Downloading a publicly available video transmitted over a nearly global communications network is directly analogous to recording a show to tape from a TV signal.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by Reelin on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:46PM (#24875141)
The signal is broadcast (ie not under your control) and so the sole purpose being permitted there is time shifting.

YouTube is an on demand stream. It would be comparable to recording a pay per view movie that you purchased. Is that legal? (The question isn't rhetorical, but I seriously doubt it.)

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by hunter2_ on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:13PM (#24875385)
What if your intent is to shift to a time when Youtube doesn't exist?
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by omgwtfbyobbq on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:28PM (#24876147)
It when you don't have access to it (plane flight, etc). That sounds like time shifting to me.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by McDyver on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:21PM (#24875440)
If, for example, you bought a movie and downloaded it to watch on a plane when you can't have access to streaming, why wouldn't it be legal?
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by Reelin on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:29PM (#24875500)
That would be an interesting argument. I suspect it would be illegal because a pay per view stream is typically time limited. But if the stream itself were still valid while you were on the plane ... ?
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by kzrdude on Saturday October 24, 2020 @03:55AM (#24877668)
What about using youtube-dl as the only technical way to play it on a low power device, like with mpv on an Rpi or old laptop.

That's a kind of tech adaption of the streaming/playback mode (and I've done it a ton on previous laptops)

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by anticensor on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:59AM (#24877896)
Then RIAA would argue for a DRMd version of downloader that is prevented from doing it in high power deviced.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by hilbert42 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @12:07AM (#24876864)
"...this is a medium that the RIAA barely tolerates, rather than the (ideal) main distribution channel."

Right, this is the precise problem, and it has to be solved - not by a free-for-all but with proper equitabl copywrite laws.

As matters stand, it's only going to get worse. Say we assume that if somehow both YouTube downloads are made much more difficult to crack AND no downloaders are available, then viewers and downloaders will then use newer tech that's even easier to use to record the videos. With new hi-resonution 4k cameras becoming commonly available, they'll be able to record stuff with still-excellent resolution by just photographing the monitor.

Of course, that still won't deter the RIAA, I can see them trying to ban cardboard covers and jigs that hold cameras and monitors accurately in alignment.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by scruffyherder on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:25PM (#24875831)
Probably because YouTube premium let’s you do that.
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by romanoderoma on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:15PM (#24873541)
It could but probably doesn't

One could argue that YouTube success is mostly about unlimited access to illegal copyrighted material uploaded by some unknown person in some unknown part of the world

After all the thing it's already on YouTube and on my HD after I watched it

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by ydlr on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:44PM (#24873912)
If the videos mentioned in the notice are hosted on Youtube without authorization, then the takedown notice should be sent to YouTube.

If the videos were uploaded to Youtube with authorization, then accessing them through youtube-dl is not an example of the program being used for infringement.

Either way, the purpose of the software is to download anything publically available from YouTube. Its purpose is not copyright infringement unless the purpose of YouTube is copyright infringement.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by romanoderoma on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:56PM (#24874071)
That's exactly the point.

The content is already available

The monetisation of the content depends on a lot of different factors, many have monetized unauthorized content over the years, many received money from the same unauthorized content by faking clicks and views and many avoid paying YouTube in the form of ads by using ad blockers

I believe youtube-dl users amount to a maximum of a single digit percent of the above (with the digit being between 1 and 2 with 2 excluded)

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by Shared404 on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:20PM (#24873605)
> YouTube success is mostly about unlimited access to illegal copyrighted material uploaded by some unknown person in some unknown part of the world

Good point. I quite like that argument.

Not that my opinion actually matters in this case.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by tartoran on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:37PM (#24873829)
Someone who is capable of downloading youtube videos can easily block ads and many do, not because ads are bad but because they are both excessive in any form possible and a malware spreading channel. I do too but don’t bother to download videos because it is still more convent to watch’em directly on youtube. But it seems those days are coming to an end soon, lets see
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by kzrdude on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:00PM (#24875266)
I watch youtube videos with mpv sometimes. That's not even downloading it. But it's using youtube-dl to stream the video :)
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:40PM (#24875583)
It stands up to legal scrutiny, and Betamax case is not applicable.

They have these things called "streaming licenses" these days, that are very different from "download licenses" because streamed data is not the same thing as a downloaded file even if they both use the same codec and are derived from the same source.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by michaelmrose on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:41PM (#24875917)
This is a wholly imaginary distinction based on a triviality. Streaming IS downloading. Also how is the betamax case not applicable. The user of a VCR isn't "licensed" to record whats on their tv
Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by gamblor956 on Friday October 23, 2020 @09:22PM (#24876123)
No, it's a distinction that exists based on the differences in how the video content is consumed.

It is irrelevant, legally, that one implementation of a streaming software may choose to download the streamed data to a temporary disc file, or that some content downloaders can structure the assembly of a partially downloaded file so that (some) content can be accessed before the download is fully completed. What matters is that a streamed file is intended to be consumed contemporaneously with the acquisition of the downloaded data however it is stored on the computer, and that caching for efficiency aside, each separate act of consumption involves a separate act of acquiring the content, whereas a downloaded file is intended to be downloaded once and consumed multiple times.

Also how is the betamax case not applicable. The user of a VCR isn't "licensed" to record whats on their tv

No, they are not licensed to record what's on TV. But the point of the Betamax case was that "time-shifted viewing" by a private viewer was deemed to be fair use because at the time broadcast TV content was transmitted on a fixed schedule and absent the private recording, was not otherwise consumable because many of these shows were not rerun or sold on cassette tape. Thus the court found that the Betamax had substantial non-infringing use (and indeed, that it's primary intended use was thus non-infringing).

However, digital content is provided on demand so there is no need for "time-shifted" viewing, and so the reasoning from Betamax no longer applies. Moreover, many content owners now make the content available for "connectivity-shifted" viewing (aka, away from internet connectivity) via a downloaded content license. Thus, downloading that content from a streaming source is generally no longer protected by fair use.

Consequently, using youtube-dl to download your favorite streamer to watch on a plane trip would probably be fair use because they probably don't make the content available for access-shifted viewing otherwise. But using it to download a music video would not, because the music and video owners make those available for download with a purchasable license. And the problem with youtube-dl is that they demonstrated that the primary intent of the tool was to download music videos, the evidence being that the README and parts of the code explicitly refer to downloading music videos subject to RIAA licensing. Under the Betamax ruling, this would be fine, because there are substantial legitimate uses...but the DMCA changed that and so it doesn't matter if there are substantial legitimate uses if the primary intended use was to violate copyright.

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by hilbert42 on Friday October 23, 2020 @11:36PM (#24876738)
"README and parts of the code explicitly refer to downloading music videos subject to RIAA licensing."

It beggars belief that people can be this stupid. Why the hell would one mention it here? Are they truly that stupid to believe that the RIAA wouldn't see it? Then they made matters even worste by putting it on Github instead of some obscure website in Eastern Europe?

Talk about shooting oneself in the foot!

Re:YouTube-dl has received a DMCA takedown from RIAA by jdbernard on Friday October 23, 2020 @04:00PM (#24873346)
But it's not legally the same.