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Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by nicbou on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @05:24AM (#24763758)
I don't buy into serverless.

I went to a webdev convention, and it ended up being a serverless hype train. Industry experts with a financial incentive to promote serverless went on stage and told me they can't debug their code, or run it on their machine. They showed me comically large system diagrams for very simple use cases, then spent an hour explaining how to do not-quite-ACID transactions. Oh yeah and you can only use 3-5 languages, and each import statement has a dollar amount tied to it.

More importantly, all those skills you develop are tied to Amazon, or some other giant. All the code you write is at their mercy. Any problem you have depends on their support.

Am I supposed to bet hundreds or thousands of man hours on that?

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by sippingjippers on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @05:32AM (#24763811)
AWS in particular seem to have a carefully refined technical sales/certification/advocacy channel whose main product is those fucking stupid architecture diagrams. Hello world service with $4000/mo. worth of geo-replicated backing databases, CloudWatch alarms, API Gateway instances, WAF etc.

But don't let it encourage you to think serverless has no value, or it can't be done portably or cheaply. It has its sweet spots just like everything else.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by diggan on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @06:49AM (#24764206)
Reminds of something that was on the HN frontpage some month ago, where readers are not sure if it's a parody or not, because of the architecture you're required to deploy yourself to use this new "Perspective" product. Direct link to the architecture, that in the end serves the use case of generating a diagram of your AWS resources: https://d1.awsstatic.com/Solutions/Solutions%20Category%20Te...

https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/implementations/aws-perspec...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552779

(regarding costs, this setup ends up being +$500/month, again, to draw graphs of your architecture https://twitter.com/der_rehan/status/1308242717307174912)

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by joana035 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @10:38AM (#24765967)
Reading this made me remember that back in the day the AWS selling point was "here you can create virtual machines with few clicks and have it instantly instead of waiting 30 min for you colocated server to be ready" but now it seems to be "here is a bunch of random expensive tools, please, produce as much stuff as possible and share the word that having servers is bad™".

This field used to be inspiring, but now I see the ideia of having a server being sold as the plague and lots of negativity towards people who are good at servers. They are not seen as another human being but the "other".

Also I can't understand why one would prefer to pay that much for such complexity.

It seems unsustainable for me, not to mention the new generation being spoon fed that that is way to go makes me concerned about the future of open computing.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by jasonlotito on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @12:03PM (#24766829)
"Also I can't understand why one would prefer to pay that much for such complexity."

If there is one thing that dealing with AWS reps has taught me, it's that this was 100% by customers. I swear to god, AWS doesn't do anything without customers asking for it.

If you are wondering why products are build in AWS, it's because people wanted to give them money for this. Say what you want, but this isn't something are pushing on us. This is something "we" push on them to provide.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by liv-io on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:09AM (#24766295)
Your response made me smile. Glad to see there are still reasonable folks out there. Working for a startup without a "resume-driven-development" CTO gave me the freedom to go "servermore" architecture with max flexibility.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by daxfohl on Saturday October 17, 2020 @08:24PM (#24814629)
For all the talk about resume driven development, I am hiring now, and will say that people who have solved their problems by learning more about Linux and such sound way more impressive than those who list out passing familiarity with a bunch of high level services. The first style of resume really stands out. The second is a dime a dozen.

To make an analogy, it's like hiring a carpenter based on the number of tools they have. NO. Show me your skill with a hammer and chisel, and I'll assume you can figure out the rest.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by mtnGoat on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @04:01PM (#24769685)
"pay that much for such complexity"... FWIW, we shaved 50%+ off our compute bill and lowered complexity by moving from servers to serverless.

Just because it doesn't work for your situation doesn't mean it doesn't work at all.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by nicbou on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @05:10AM (#24774670)
The opposite is also true: just because it works for your situation doesn't mean it works for all of them.

It's a tool in your toolbox.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by mtnGoat on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @12:39PM (#24778601)
absolutely agreed! we still have ec2 stances and workload, but for some stuff it was the perfect solution.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by toomanybeersies on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:35PM (#24771573)
> not to mention the new generation being spoon fed that that is way to go

The new generation is always joining one cargo cult or another, that's why competent technical leadership is important. Remember when noSQL was the best thing since sliced bread?

Serverless can be a good option if you have large and unpredictable transient loads.

Like any architectural choice, you need to consider the tradeoffs and suitability for your use case. A TODO app probably doesn't need to be built with a serverless SOA.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by beagle3 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @06:15AM (#24764042)
It reminds me of https://www.frankmcsherry.org/graph/scalability/cost/2015/01... - you pay an extremely high cost upfront without even noticing - for the promise that at some point, you'll be able to scale out to any scale, with no extra human effort and for costs proportional to the scale.

I have not observed enough uses of serverless I can draw conclusions from, but if it's anywhere like hadoop style scaling, 95% of the users will pay 10x-100x on every metric without ever actually deriving any benefit compared to a non-distributed reasonably defined system, and 5% will actually benefit -- but everyone would want to put it on their resume and buzzword-bingo cards.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by m_mueller on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:36AM (#24766588)
It depends. Give you an example: We have an expensive reporting workflow that needs considerable resources, but usually only once a month. Two ways to do this cost effectively: Scale down containers to zero, meaning several minutes of response time if you do need it ad-hoc sometime. At least as complex to configure. OR you fit it to AWS SAM. The latter has proven to be a good match for us. I solved the debugging story by keeping lambda functions AWS agnostic and wrapping them i a Flask debug server - will respond exactly the same but it is all local in a single process.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by rytemporal on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @01:15AM (#24773327)
I’m the head of product for Temporal. You should check us out, have to self host (MIT) right now but we are working on a cloud. You can safely write code that blocks for years. No more job queues.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by beagle3 on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @05:49AM (#24774865)
I suppose you mean temporal.io, but just FYI, the first google result for me was https://github.com/RTradeLtd/Temporal which is far but not far enough to be “obviously unrelated”.

You might want to give a link next time to avoid ambiguity.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by lumost on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:20AM (#24766430)
Every server less design I've seen turns into a complex workflow of distributed functions chained together by a pile of xml.

Each example that I've seen could have been replaced with a simple single process job. You should not need to go over the network because you need a process to run for more than 10 minutes. You should be able to check the status of resource creation via for loop.

An argument can be made for not needing a server, but I can easily fire off a container in fargate/gks/ecs and get similar benefit.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by microcolonel on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:43AM (#24766655)
Our approach is to start with a mildly-distributed (among threads within the process) monolith based on future passing, and my impression is that any latency-sensitive operation in a session cluster (that is, all of the sessions who are interacting directly with the same working set of processes and aggregates) can and should be supported by a single node. Rebalancing involves moving the cached aggregate (any blob, like a sqlite database or a JSON file) and/or† catching up the log (sequence of blobs) on the target node.

Futures are basically trivial to serialize, so the cost of involving a second node is as little as it could be; and node consolidation can be generalized because each node's dispatcher knows how many times it has accessed a remote process, which means that consensus on who should lead its log can be reached by simply sending it to the node that has the most use for it (with load balancing achieved by nodes simply not bidding for logs when their load factor or total service time is over some threshold, or say the 60th percentile of all the nodes, or whichever of those two is higher).

† In some cases it's faster to just catch up the log, rather than sending the aggregate.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by nscalf on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @12:17PM (#24766983)
Thank you, serverless is the new structure that everyone loves and wants to work in, but no one talks about the downside. I just took over a project that has a serverless architecture.

We can't run it locally because the emulator won't run 7/10 of the code, there are memory limit errors that are totally opaque to us since we can't step through and watch it break. We are getting unexplained timing issues that were being worked on via logs in dev. The costs are insane.

If we want to say serverless is the future, the future isn't here yet. There are many tools that would need to be built to make serverless viable, and the tools that are built are immature and bad. Not to mention, you're tied to the companies support, so Google was outdated from the LTS for Node for a while. The reality is going serverless means you don't have control over what happens to your code.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by FlingBeyond on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @04:51PM (#24770164)
I believe one of the main reasons Serverless will never be more than a low-tier niche is the combination of the following:

In the end, you are just renting well maintained server farms (well, a specific percentage of operational time of some of the servers in them). There is absolutely no appeal for large technology-based companies do this once they can (the following is the lowest scale example) afford to maintain their own servers, while potentially renting a few offsite backups in other areas of the world (again, this is just the lowest-scale architecture starting at which Serverless is always the worse option).

Existing solutions are extremely over-engineered. It can be excused with "officially planning for the use-case where maximum scalability is required", but it's almost certainly a pretense to sell "certifications", aka "explaining our own convoluted badly documented mess". What this actually means is that many SWE's who are good enough to learn to use Serverless effectively, can learn any other framework that allows building distributed systems across server nodes with equal effort. Why would I base my whole business on your vendor locked, sub-optimized dumpster when I can do the same on an infinitely scalable VM networks, that can be ported to literally any vendor who supports $5/mo VMs (or, you know, self hosted if my company is large enough)?

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by srram on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @08:08PM (#24771805)
the flip side to your statement:smaller companies (like where I am) are not interested in maintaining our own servers and do all the un-differentiated heavy lifting related to maintaining servers. I want my small team to work on things that make us stand out. Running our own servers does not.

Vendor lock-in is not a big consideration for us. I increasingly think about cloud vendors like Operating systems. I really dont care which Linux distro we are on. Pick a vendor and run 'natively' on it to go as fast as possible.

I'm happy paying AWS for maintaining the servers and getting out of that messy business. There are other concerns about serverless around observability and managability, but vendor lockin and cost is not part of my equation

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by znpy on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @09:07AM (#24765190)
I view the serverless, specifically aws lambda, as nice way to hook into the aws system and add some code to handle certain events. Basically, to customize the behavior of "the cloud" where aws falls short (for whatever reason).

But developing with "serverless" as base stack? Nope.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by nickcotter on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @02:00PM (#24768017)
That’s what we’ve been using it for, for the most part. Plugging holes in CloudFormation etc.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by raxxorrax on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:21AM (#24764403)
I bought into hosting stuff on AWS, specifically on EBS which I assume is meant by a 'serverless' infrastructure, but I don't know crap about it.

Still think it is mostly awesome and the services are solid. But such infrastructure comes with its own caveats.

EBS now bugs me about some 'HealthCheckAuthEnabled'. I don't know what it wants, just that I have limited time to react. Cannot understand the clearly auto-translated text. Still didn't get what it wants from me when I read it in English. I banned the health check from my logs and said where it can get a response from the service I run. I hoped our friendship ended there. Maybe it did and this is some form of retaliation.

The load balancer AWS set up for me now suddenly costs money. And I thought I could just use it to grab the free TLS cert that comes with it... well, the clients pay for the additional costs anyway and I would be surprised if anyone even noticed the price spike. The traffic is minimal but I am surprised it is actually that expensive. I could probably cut the costs in half if I actually had motivation to look through all the settings...

Microsoft just cancelled some features of some online service my colleague works with because they want to market an alternative for their BI solution. Did cost him 3 weeks of work at the minimum. The stuff cannot be ported to an on-premise version.

Hosting your own server is a lot of work and isn't fun. There is still a lot of work to do if you host on something on such an infrastructure.

Somehow the amount of work you have to put into software hasn't decreased. Honestly the main argument for it is that you can give away responsibilities.

edit: Just noticed that EBS probably counts as PaaS instead of serverless. I run "stuff" (very simple functions) on Lambda too, but to think it would replace apps like the article suggested seems a bit much. It has its purpose, but nearly everything I have on Lambda is AWS cloud specific. It comes in handy for Alexa integrations for example. I think the container won this fight to be honest.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by 1337shadow on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:57AM (#24764664)
> Hosting your own server is a lot of work and isn't fun.

For me it's easy because i just maintain my ansible roles.

It's fun because I get to keep up with OSS and be part of an amazing community.

And I get much better hardware for the price.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by liv-io on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:06AM (#24766274)
This could have been written by me. And for who ever doesn't have time to maintain roles, there is Ansible Galaxy or tons of roles in GitHub, including mine: https://github.com/liv-io
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by GordonS on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @02:20PM (#24768324)
I've looked an Ansible a couple of times, but I always think it looks too verbose, but more than that the way files for the same thing are spread out across multiple folders just makes it seem like there is a steep learning curve. Something like Ansible sounds great, but it feels like learning it would be a chore.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by 1337shadow on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:30AM (#24787412)
It doesn't matter if you use Ansible, something else, or something you made yourself to your own taste.

The tool doesn't matter, it's the practice that matters ;)

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by vinceguidry on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:18AM (#24766402)
If you want more fun stand up your own k8s cluster.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by 1337shadow on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:29AM (#24787398)
Actually I have and I love it, when I need more than 99.9% uptime and/or clustering.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by k__ on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:26AM (#24766502)
"Hosting your own server is a lot of work and isn't fun. There is still a lot of work to do if you host on something on such an infrastructure."

So true.

I really want to know how many of these "I host my own stuff"-people keep all there systems up to date. Updates, security patches etc.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by nicbou on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @03:44AM (#24774188)
That's a command or two every week or two. I was not exaggerating when I said my house plants require more maintenance than that.

Running a server has been a non-issue for years for me.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by NDizzle on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @10:40AM (#24777018)
It's second nature for those of us who have been doing it since the 90s. It's incredible that it's apparently becoming a lost art.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by Bluestein on Thursday October 15, 2020 @02:49PM (#24792306)
Indeed. Kind of reminds me of that sayin' about how "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist ..."

Sometimes I think it is a great trick some big players are pulling off, in convincing the world to subsidize their infrastructure costs (and more than that) by using their resources because it is "simpler" or more effective or alternatives are hard, etc ...

... to where the ability to competently setup and maintain those services will vanish, in due time. (Which, of course would only help to consolidate those -already- running such systems ...)

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by dzamo_norton on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:54PM (#24862625)
It's really not that bad. Most of the investment is early on, after that servers just run. I use unattended updates to keep patches coming in while I'm doing other stuff. Updating from a Debian stable repo won't break your stuff.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by fragmede on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @02:45PM (#24768711)
Now, whether or not you, personally, do, is entirely up to you and what you want your career trajectory to go. (Both are equally valid because internally, AWS will always needs ops people that understand computers.) However, a cottage industry of AWS Certified Solutions Architects has already sprung up, and some have been getting lucrative consulting gigs based on knowing the mismash of Amazon names and how best to mash them up.

Serverless (specifically AWS Lambda) plays a part in the cloud, but most of your objections are true of the cloud and/or AWS more broadly, and have little to do with, specifically, serverless. (Despite whatever the webdev convention was trying to sell you.) There's a whole world of EC2 instances which are mostly VPSes, to know about that definitively aren't serverless (though there are some really neat cattle-level features that serverless learns from)

If the computer is a bicycle for the mind, then the cloud is a car for the programmer's mind. You can definitely build your own stack with your own team that manages to avoids the cloud, but at some point it becomes more than one person can handle. As you scale, there's a points where the cloud does, and does not make sense, but the cloud gets you access to far more resources as a tiny team than would otherwise be available to you.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by gokceozantoptas on Wednesday October 14, 2020 @03:18AM (#24774025)
Serverless (as far as I can understand) is what we can consider as the early stages of the commoditization of compute. Meaning, similar to electricity or tap water, at some point in our lives we will subscribe to a provider and then just plug and play whatever we want to. It is just we are in the early stages.

If you are interested in these kind of stuff, maybe take a look at Wardley Maps: https://medium.com/wardleymaps

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by davidgatti on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:00AM (#24764276)
Well, only because you had bad teachers doesn't mean the topic is bad. You had the misfortune to interact with people that don't understand the topic they try to explain. I try to give a simple explanation here: https://consulting.0x4447.com/articles/knowledge/should-i-go... - just as a starting point to at least get a frame of reference when to use and not to use Serverless. But hey I'm just a random person in a random location on this planet :)
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by RikNieu on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @09:08AM (#24765197)
And it's so. So. Expensive.
Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by deepstack on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:43AM (#24764563)
Serverless is meant to make bar lower for front-end developer so they don't have to learn the basics about web back-end development and be able to develop apps. I'm very glad if failed!

People who don't put time into learning development should not do it.

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by kevinmannix on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:17AM (#24766388)
Your second point broadly makes sense. In fact, it's almost a truism: if you don't put time into learning, you won't have the skills necessary to be able to execute.

However, it seems detached from your first point.

If one's role is a front-end developer, is it necessary that they know about back-end development? If it is outside their intended job function, why would they need to know about it, if it doesn't get in the way of performing their job? If you are a backend developer, do you need to know about how to host your own infrastructure? Handle your own networking? Chip design? Your logic could be applied to any job function. Each level of the stack benefits from the levels below it being abstracted. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, and we're all much better for it.

Overall, I do think it's better that one has a good understanding about the various components one interacts with. Having a grasp of the overall system will come in handy. A curiosity into other parts of the system is beneficial, and likely is one of many indicators of success. However, if job functions can be simplified and superfluous context removed, why should we fault those for taking advantage of that?

This issue with "lowering the bar" and being glad that a simplification has "failed" (which, is yet to be determined), reeks to me like gatekeeping. The same logic could be applied to any job role which benefits from simplification. In an extreme example, this logic could be extrapolated to support the notion that anyone who cannot build their own machine from the ground up should never work in a programming position. What height is appropriate for the "bar"?

Re:The Serverless Revolution Has Stalled by k__ on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:32AM (#24766564)
Gatekeeping by randomly drawing the line by learning backend development, aren't we?