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Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by logicalmonster on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:17AM (#24755252)
Digital book burning 2.0.

“But it’s ok, we’re the good guys and doing it for the right reasons”, says every tyrant ever.

Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment. It’s the worst precedent you can ever set.

I’ll try and give an example here that might be safe to give because it rips the Republican Wing of the Military Industrial Complex.

If Facebook was one of the world’s primary communication channel in say the early 1990s, the people who would have called BS on tearful made up testimony about Saddam unplugging babies from respirators that was used to sell the war to the public wouldn’t have even had an opportunity to challenge the official story. Facebook would have blocked their opinions as hateful content and if they persisted just conspired with the rest of Silicon Valley to completely remove them from the Internet. A chain of events that have cost arguably millions of lives and trillions of dollars can be tied to some of that testimonial propaganda and would have been unable to be talked about critically with Facebook’s current rule set.

Now we want Facebook in charge of determining truth? Be careful about what you wish for. You applaud today, but now the precedent is set. What’s next on the chopping block might not be something you’ll like.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by creata on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:36AM (#24755506)
You call it "digital book burning", and you call Facebook a "primary communication channel", because your argument necessitates that you exaggerate so. If you see Facebook for what it is --- not an arm of the government, not the only voice anyone has, but just one of many communication platforms --- it's clear that this is no violation of free speech.

Facebook isn't determining "what is true"; it's just determining what it is okay with hosting.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by yeneek on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:11PM (#24755949)
It's censorship for sure.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by serial_dev on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:56AM (#24755746)
> If you see Facebook for what it is --- not an arm of the government

I find it easy to see Facebook as one of the arms of the government. It's not the only arm of the government, and it's not the only thing Facebook does, but one could consider Facebook (and other social networks and tech giants) as an arm of the government.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by shadowgovt on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:36PM (#24756237)
Believe me, the world would look a lot different if Facebook were actually an arm of the government.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by bjourne on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:01PM (#24755812)
Much in the same way that the Chinese firewall is just determining what it is okay with flowing through its fiber pipes.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by disown on Monday October 12, 2020 @01:00PM (#24756562)
> it's clear that this is no violation of free speech.

It is a violation of free speech. Just a legal one. For example, parts of europe, russia, china, saudi arabia, etc there are legal violations of free speech. Doesn't make it right though.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by conception on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:38AM (#24755537)
Your example doesn’t even make sense. This isn’t challenging the officially story, it’s making up a story and selling it to propagate racism.

But also rights and freedoms have limits. Unless you think private citizens should be allowed to own tanks and icbms, etc, then you agree.

Social media is, if not a nuclear weapon, certainly a machine gun of speech with its magnitude and velocity and certainly something unthinkable by the founding fathers and being weaponized by state actors against our institutions and ideals. Complaining about these restrictions without a viable other way to combat this ignorance and psyops -at the same scale and velocity- is just complaining.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by beisner on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:39AM (#24755538)
Yawn. Facebook is not the public square, nor should it be. Imo it’s also the wrong platform for political engagement (because it structurally amplifies the wrong kinds of engagement), and I couldn’t care less what editorial power they exert. There are other, real public forums (where speech is constitutionally protected) where fringe groups can peddle their ideas.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by shadowgovt on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:37PM (#24756251)
Indeed. People use Facebook because "the public square," as it were, is cantankerous, unfriendly, and shitty.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by shadowgovt on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:34PM (#24756215)
If the next thing on the chopping block isn't something we like, we'll decide whether this private company's media service is something we want to keep using.

YouTube modified their content model to make it harder to find trans-friendly content. We've already had this fight over YouTube. People complained and they adjusted the model.

But the complaints that were heard were that being anti-trans is bad, not that YouTube has no right to maintain a model.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by amelius on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:42AM (#24755576)
> Never let speech get censored no matter how good it makes you feel in the moment.

The problem is that you can censor speech by adding more speech (i.e. noise).

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by dabeeeenster on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:34AM (#24755471)
Facebook doesnt exist in an American vacuum. You are mapping your values and belief system onto the world.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by aww_dang on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:31AM (#24755428)
Not a FB user myself, but do they not put fact check warnings on links deemed "untrustworthy"?

That ship has already sailed IMHO.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by X6S1x6Okd1st on Monday October 12, 2020 @02:51PM (#24757986)
Do you use public facebook posts or group posts as a primary communication channel?
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by BbzzbB on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:54AM (#24755718)
Lest not forget FAAAM started the witch hunt by banning pornographic, violent or gore content, all tyrants.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by aixi on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:33AM (#24755463)
That's just a slippery slope fallacy. The holocaust is a non-recent and well documented event, and its denial is clearly a masquerade for hateful speech. Holocaust denial is outlawed in Germany for good reasons.

Not to mention Facebook is a private company and it should be free to censor whatever it wants to censor; book burning is a real issue only when its state sponsored.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by Rebelgecko on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:22PM (#24756073)
>book burning is a real issue only when its state sponsored.

Strong disagree from me. These corporations are becoming an increasingly large part of how people communicate. Imagine if phone companies started deplatforming people the way social media sites do- it would become incredibly hard (perhaps impossible) to live a normal life in 21st century america.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by shadowgovt on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:39PM (#24756290)
Different media. Phones are a direct-messaging platform; Facebook is a highway full of roadside billboards.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by Rebelgecko on Monday October 12, 2020 @02:32PM (#24757765)
FB has direct messaging and will refuse to send a PM to a friend if it contains a "bad" link
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by hggythhdtr on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:37AM (#24755515)
If holocaust denial, flat earthers, plandemic, and qanon is the kind of stuff we get when FB does nothing, then I'll take my chances on them removing some content, thanks.

Besides, with a disinterested moderator you don't automatically get pure free speech. Others step in to influence the system, to push their "truth" to their benefit.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by DuskStar on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:35AM (#24755482)
I'm personally waiting for Facebook to start removing 'misinformation' on the Armenian Genocide in Turkey.

(Turkey officially denies that such a genocide ever happened, so 'misinformation' could go either way depending on your geographic location)

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by ephimetheus on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:37PM (#24756264)
Clearly there are and need to be limits to free speech. Holocaust denial is such a case.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by spacemanmatt on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:32AM (#24755454)
This is the comedic response I have come to expect from Holocaust deniers. Carry on with your hyperbole, as we all know that you will.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by yakireev on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:49AM (#24755658)
First, that wasn't a hyperbole. Second, you don't have to be a holocaust denier to be pro free speech, and the guy you're replying to probably isn't one.

Holocaust denial is a very bad thing, why would you smear someone with it just because they love free speech more than you do?

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by michaelmrose on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:38AM (#24755533)
You are assuming that a simple free market of ideas actually works. As it turns out it really doesn't because people are stupid and when you let people self select whom to attend to stupid people choose other stupid people to attend to and soon mistake constant repetition of falsehoods for truth.

These spreading piles of human bile attract people who are peripherally socially connected on the social graph some of which grow the pile o poison until you reach a critical mass of poison and your society derails.

You advance the fallacy that if we censor anything we must censor everything that powerful parties desire. This isn't so. Facebook has actually been very reluctant to censor anything at all and even now and is only now choosing to censor things that are harmful uncontroversial falsehoods.

In the case of the holocaust denial they are hateful lies that have festered for decades. Nothing in particular forces us to slide down the slope and start covering for the powerful.

Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by devthrowawy on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:16PM (#24756012)
Just get some popcorn and watch fb bleed itself dry before it realizes that trying to create a 'safe space' is completely counter productive.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by shadowgovt on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:37PM (#24756261)
Users seem willing to pay (with their attention) to safe spaces.
Re:Removing Holocaust Denial Content by colinmhayes on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:26AM (#24755373)
Unfortunately I trust Facebook far more than most Americans to properly discern truth.