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Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by throwaway2048 on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @02:52PM (#24711357)
Chrome is also crippling adblockers, plenty of websites are already chrome only, and I'm guessing if you can ensure ad delivery, a whole lot more are going to jump on that train.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by mixedCase on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:22PM (#24711674)
The easy way out is to choose a different Chromium fork that has your interests at heart.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by mrec on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:34PM (#24711801)
> a different Chromium fork

Well, that's a depressing sentence to read. The vultures may be circling, but Firefox isn't dead yet.

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by hdjdbtbgwjsn on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:37PM (#24713031)
I've started to encouter websites that just don't even render in FF.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by mrec on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:46PM (#24715528)
Major ones? I use FF pretty much exclusively and haven't hit one yet.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by amenod on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:25AM (#24716415)
Same here. Though the Google properties are sloooooow in Firefox - if this is not abuse of power then I don't know what is.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by edoceo on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @08:50PM (#24714541)
I'm trying Servo builds. Oof. Most of the web, even my own very thin no BS pages are not loading perfect. But! Servo is improving. Maybe my Rust skills can improve so I could even contribute.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by amenod on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:26AM (#24716423)
Just to be clear, this is not Firefox though.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by edoceo on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:53AM (#24717891)
Yep, it's not.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by CodesInChaos on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:05AM (#24718739)
> Servo is improving

I thought it's unmaintained since the recent Mozilla layoffs?

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by jefftk on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:47AM (#24719541)
Isn't that Servo being incomplete, not web developers doing something wrong?
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by garmaine on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:39PM (#24711868)
Firefox has been a dead browser walking for a number of years now.

I don’t like this any more than you, but it’s the truth.

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by dont__panic on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:59PM (#24712068)
I'm not sure if this is true -- there was a dark time during the period where Google started to advertise Chrome on literally all google websites, but all of the internal refactors and engine improvements over the past 2-3 years have made an enormous impact on my user experience. And as far as I'm concerned, Firefox isn't dead as long as there isn't a viable replacement that:

- doesn't update via a sketchy background process (Google Updater, or whatever they've renamed it to this month to avoid scrutiny)

- allows me to customize the UI to fit my needs (tree style tabs are an absolute must for me)

- allows me to use a full ad blocker like uBlock Origin instead of arbitrarily limiting the ad blocker API to advance the interests of advertisers

Of course, Firefox's management is an enormous problem, from the way they've prioritized features to the recent layoffs to the enormously stupid decisions (letting a certificate expire that disabled almost all add-ons, the Mr. Robot tie-in "experiment", pushing pocket, default disabling userChrome.css, forcing auto-updates) they've made in the past 5 years. But the core of Firefox is good.

I would love a startup that builds an entire business off of a fork of Firefox that's completely based on privacy, perhaps with some non-invasive monetization like:

- a $5-20 one-time fee to use (with weak enforcement, a la Sublime Text's "annoy you every 5 saves" model)

- a paid vs. free split where the free version of the browser adblocks ads but replaces them with in-network, verified safe ads

- Linux kernel donation-style only model, with no parent corporation

Because of all of the Firefox devs floating around who just got laid off, you could even snatch up some guaranteed capable talent already familiar with the code base. And the best part? They're already vetted to not be part of the management-industrial complex that's taken over Firefox these days.

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by shadowgovt on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:27PM (#24712343)
Sub-10% market share is a problem for them.

It's enough of a skew that when rendering errors crop up, product managers have to decide how many eng-hours it's worth to chase down the small implementation difference between Chromium and Gecko to snag 1 in 10 potential lost visitors, instead of throwing a UA-sniffing "best viewed in Chrome" banner on the page and calling it a day.

Being a rarely-used browser is a negative feedback loop for compatibility, regardless of what standards say (because standards are often too loose to guarantee full interoperability in all corner cases; they rarely give performance constraints and often don't consider all possible combinations of feature use).

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by mrec on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:24PM (#24712909)
Agree on all points. It's not quite as deadly as back in the old browser wars, because HTML5 is much better specified than its predecessors, but it's definitely a major problem.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by asddubs on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:24PM (#24712908)
>- a paid vs. free split where the free version of the browser adblocks ads but replaces them with in-network, verified safe ads

your ideal privacy focused firefox comes with a conflict of interest built in

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by fakedang on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:28PM (#24712349)
> I would love a startup that builds an entire business off of a fork of Firefox that's completely based on privacy, perhaps with some non-invasive monetization like:

Don't know if this is 100% accurate, but Tor?

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by Fnoord on Sunday October 11, 2020 @10:05AM (#24745858)
> Don't know if this is 100% accurate, but Tor?

You probably meant "Tor Browser". Changes from there were backported, and last time I checked plan was to have it entirely backported within Mozilla Firefox.

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by freeopinion on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:40PM (#24712470)
You mean like Brave, only built off Firefox?
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by dont__panic on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:54PM (#24713205)
Pretty much my vision. The largest reason I don't use Brave is because it's built on top of Chromium, and simply jumping on the Chromium train gives Google the ability to dictate the future of the internet. There needs to be a browser engine alternative, or alternatively, maybe we need to spin Chromium out of the Googleplex and let a free and open source group handle future development independent of the Ad overlords.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by freeopinion on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:10PM (#24721288)
I understand your sentiment, but let's be clear. Chrome was itself a "spin out" from another engine. That engine still exists. But Google's investment into Chrome has been such that you yourself ignore the original. A new spinout from Chrome would face the same problems.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by lukeramsden on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:30PM (#24711767)
How many are Chrome only vs Chromium only? I use ungoogled-chromium[1] quite happily

[1] https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by stjohnswarts on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:47PM (#24715538)
How long before they rip out open source parts and make chrome closed source or a much more limited licensing and start sticking all their proprietary network protocols in it so that you can't fork Chrome any longer. I personally believe that's the endgame for google.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by jefftk on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:50AM (#24719572)
> all their proprietary network protocols

We're literally discussing this on a post where Chrome is switching from a proprietary protocol (Google QUIC) to a standardized protocol (IETF QUIC).

(Disclosure: I work for Google, speaking only for myself)

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by mda on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:44AM (#24716854)
I don't think there a single instance of an application that Google did what you described. Why do you think it will start now? This doesn't make any sense.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by throwaway2048 on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:28PM (#24756135)
Google has been moving open source components of android into closed source Play store components for years now.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by lukeramsden on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:50AM (#24716542)
That's a valid point, and a good one. I certainly hope they don't. Is there precedent for them doing something like that before?
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by unionpivo on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:19AM (#24717069)
Android without their proprietary bits is a lot less useful
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by elcomet on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:48AM (#24719063)
Hope is the only thing we got
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by joseluisq on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:39AM (#24716833)
Very interesting project. ungoogled-chromium seems to addressing many of the concerns that inhibit control and transparency. E.g Chromium even without a Google account cannot address those concerns.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by jefftk on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:40PM (#24711872)
> plenty of websites are already chrome only

What websites are Chrome-only?

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by gsich on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:49PM (#24711971)
Those are not worth visiting then.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by shock on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:18PM (#24712255)
Until it's your bank that goes Chrome only.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by mr_toad on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @08:01PM (#24714249)
What and lose all their iOS customers ?
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by colejohnson66 on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:32PM (#24712991)
Most sites that “require” Chrome will render and run fine on Firefox. It’s just a matter of setting your user agent to say you’re running Chrome.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by dingaling on Thursday October 08, 2020 @02:49AM (#24716537)
Firefox recently removed the facility to set user-agent on a per-site basis. It's only universal now.

So if you now want to spoof as Chrome to your bank, you spoof as Chrome to all websites.

Rather a foot-gun from Mozilla but on par for their recent choices.

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by sergeykish on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:25AM (#24719986)
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by d3nj4l on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @08:52PM (#24714552)
> It’s just a matter of setting your user agent to say you’re running Chrome.

This is the real clincher - websites discriminating against Firefox often don't know why. I assume it's because they don't want to be liable for using their software on a browser they haven't tested on. Or it's just the good ol' Google search on Firefox mobile thing, i.e. "we'll gimp it for no particular reason!"

Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by raxxorrax on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:31AM (#24717128)
Very true and these sites quickly move to a blacklist in my case. Almost all sites can still be displayed in FF though.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by stjohnswarts on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:48PM (#24715545)
It may be now, but how long before everyone moves over to GoogleChromeNet rather than the internet and Firefox can't even read the webpage let alone render it.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by freeopinion on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @04:43PM (#24712498)
You either have principles or you don't. Anything else is haggling over price.
Re:Chrome is deploying HTTP/3 and IETF QUIC by sneakernets on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:09PM (#24712763)
Meanwhile, in the real world...

As an early Linux user, I still remember running a Windows VM with IE installed, for years, just to do online banking. Heck, at my current corporate job all the Mac users (mostly the web designers) are given VMs to run IE11 to fill out their timecards, and use product management software. This is absurd, but real.

I'm no stranger to having to use VMs to do basic stuff online, but not everyone else is. And, to be honest, no one should have to set up a VM to use a browser they cannot trust, just to protect themselves from stupid drive-by malware.