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Re:California Is Built to Burn by eplanit on Monday October 05, 2020 @07:24PM (#24693153)
Precisely true. For a state so prescient about the effects of climate change, it's downright hypocritical to foresee droughts and fires but then allow that zoning (it's the same to worse in Sonoma, Mendocino, Humboldt). All the towns built flush to or into ther forest, little access, and no buffer. They're big on the dramatic things like establishing a carbon exchange or banning gas cars 15 years from now, but obvious and pragmatic preparedness escapes them. Time to balance "heads in the clouds" with "feet on the ground".
Re:California Is Built to Burn by gamblor956 on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:09PM (#24693841)
In the Camp Fire that killed 100 people, the trees in the town of Paradise didn't burn. The buildings did.

Firefighters were shocked to enter the town and see so much foliage unburnt between the ruins of smoking buildings. You can see some of those pictures on the Wikipedia page for Paradise, CA.

While the trees and dry bush do provide the bulk of the fuel for fires, man-made structures are far more flammable than the forests that surround them, especially in the towns consisting of older structures that don't have modern anti-fire alterations.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by throw0101a on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:18PM (#24693880)
The trees were alive and had moisture, whereas the buildings had dead leaves and pine needles that were dry, so when fire brands/embers landed on them they had lots of kindling.

I'm not sure why firefighters would be shocked as the fire scientists at (e.g.) the USDA Forest Service have been doing research on this for many years:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL_syp1ZScM

Re:California Is Built to Burn by gamblor956 on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:26PM (#24693927)
Yes, my point was that trees are not the risk, the buildings are.

CA forests are built around wildfires, and have adjusted to them over the centuries. We have not.

(The firefighters were shocked because they weren't expecting the trees in the town to be almost untouched, given the devastation in the surrounding forests.)

Re:California Is Built to Burn by m463 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @08:15AM (#24696878)
fascinating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_California#/media/Fi...

You can see that the outer layer of the trees burned but they retained their form.

Seeing this I can imagine that tree rings for the sequoias probably have a lot to teach us.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:18PM (#24693886)
Yeah, a lot of trees are pretty fire resistant as well. Not all trees are kindling.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by rsynnott on Monday October 05, 2020 @08:38PM (#24693698)
Those towns are quite old. Once a town exists, in a non-totalitarian country, it is virtually impossible to get rid of it, no matter how impractical.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by novok on Monday October 05, 2020 @08:53PM (#24693767)
It's not about getting rid of the village, but legislating that the town needs a gravel firebreak around their city limits, which might get rid of the 'we are in the middle of a forest' feel that they are going for. Somewhat like building codes so people don't live in toothpick houses that burn away or shake away in a flash.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by SllX on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:46PM (#24694036)
You’re assuming city limits exist. There’s a lot of places with names and lots of people in California that are just part of the County.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by novok on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @05:34AM (#24696077)
"If you live in a place that is wooded, you must have a firebreak or or be within a firebreak perimeter unless your housing can mobilize in 1 hour, such as a RV / tent, etc"

Thinking of how to deal with edge cases is not hard people.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by SllX on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @09:20AM (#24697366)
Not disagreeing, but you need a means of taking enforcement action. Legislation is meaningless without enforcement. Millions of people live in places that are for all practical purposes, towns, but without all the trappings of a town like a municipal government, local PD, fire department, etc. and rely on the County for these services. That’s hardly an edge case.

Fire breaks are good if you can get them and maintain them, but you’re probably better off addressing that and other factors through the Insurance market.

You also still need to actually maintain the forests to reduce risk. That means allowing some fires to burn so there isn’t a massive fuel build up, and removing dead trees which will burn and explode instead of leaving them as mulch. You still need a market based solution to encourage people to cull the woods near their property though because sometimes the only thing keeping responsible property owners from culling the woods near their property lines are their own neighbors who outvote them when it comes to making a decision. California is very democratic like that.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by rsynnott on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:16PM (#24693874)
Again, though, the houses already exist. The firebreak might be doable, but who’s paying for it?
Re:California Is Built to Burn by novok on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:19PM (#24693890)
The city and the people who live in it? Municipal bonds? Firezone income & sales taxes? It's like a special assessment in a condo when you haven't been managing your reserves properly and by law / ADA you MUST fix your elevator to make your building accessible for people who cannot walk up stairs.

As to how? Like many other govt infrastructure projects, eminent domain. Except this land nobody will be living on, it will probably just be uninhabited farm or forest land or already owned by the state.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by nradov on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:42PM (#24694010)
If we're talking about New Almaden, it isn't even a city. Just an unincorporated small community in Santa Clara county. There is no realistic way to fund major fire safety projects there. The county is tapped out, there is no way to raise taxes significantly, and other more heavily populated areas have higher priority.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by novok on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @05:29AM (#24696042)
We made roads & electric services to that place, I think a small gravel firebreak for their small community is not so much of a stretch.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by RhysU on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:04AM (#24694582)
Sure there's a way to finance it! Make everyone else in the country subsidize New Almaden! Works for hurricane and tornado areas too!
Re:California Is Built to Burn by diebeforei485 on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:12PM (#24693850)
In the absence of government intervention, renters/homeowners insurance rates would rise to reflect actual fire risk. This would naturally result in people leaving risky towns.

But the government doesn't allow that to happen by over-regulating the insurance industry.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by clairity on Monday October 05, 2020 @08:50PM (#24693751)
folks shouldn't be trying to get rid of those towns wholesale, just price in the risk and the externalized costs appropriately. easier said than done of course, as our legislative and regulatory apparatus has been broadly subjugated to real estate interests.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by rsynnott on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:20PM (#24693898)
Pricing in the externalities of peoples’ houses is a bit of a Pandora’s box, and I can understand why no-one’s too eager to do it. If you’re going purely utilitarian, well, that’s rural housing out the window for a start. Essentially all of it.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by nradov on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:30PM (#24693951)
Plenty of rural housing has minimal fire risk, especially if homes are built from fire resistant materials and homeowners take proper responsibility for clearing defensible space.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by warkdarrior on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:53PM (#24701101)
Assume houses/buildings in those areas WILL burn down each year and price insurance accordingly. Then have regulations (and government enforcement) that owners must have insurance.
Re:California Is Built to Burn by dredmorbius on Monday October 05, 2020 @09:01PM (#24693810)
California's become used to rebuilding to address threats following earthquakes. It will come to do so to wildfire..

It won't be governments which remove these towns. Or at least their structures.

Re:California Is Built to Burn by sjtindell on Monday October 05, 2020 @08:23PM (#24693623)
That definitely comes down to the simple fact that those changes being made to address climate change fears are new. Building all the communities was done a while ago.