Game consoles are general computing platforms as much as anything. Like Apple's devices they are artificially restricted with a walled garden model.
"I own this device, therefore I should be able to run anything I want" is an argument I can understand. "Company X invented this platform and therefore can choose what to allow to run on it" is also an argument I can understand (though I disagree). What I can't understand is this argument that Apple specifically shouldn't be allowed to restrict software but game consoles should.
If it was upto me, I would even argue for fairer rules there. Right now, it is Apple and they are sitting on a much more important computing platform for developers in terms of value, so I am fine if companies concentrate their efforts on iOS. If a precedent comes from this that can be applied in other places, I am all for it.
Well, I didn't see anyone here saying that game consoles should restrict software they run. They are in the monopoly wagon as much as Apple.
Users should be allowed to run any software on their machine.
Think of it as if philips screwdriver producer forbid using those screwdrivers with posidriv heads (it is less efficient but works).
And there would be those that would say: "this is their product, they can dictate how it can be used".
If I bought a system that I am technically able to install anything I want onto, I don't think courts should enforce a EULA that forbids me from doing so.
But that doesn't mean I think the courts should forbid the manufacturer from implementing technical controls to stop unapproved software from being installed.
Those are two very different things, and the courts should treat them differently.
For one, there are consumers who buy iOS devices explicitly because they are hardened against unapproved software. Comparing the amount of malware on Android with what is on iOS proves that this is not an irrational decision.
I don't choose to buy a device like that, but I don't want courts saying that companies are not legally allowed to make such devices.
I don't buy a Phillips screwdriver expecting it to work on a Robertson head because I think it should fit every case.
I still amazes me that people don't have problem with computer hardware+software being closed, enforced, EULA driven.
And at the same time they expect to be able to e.g. use knife to open a box and not only cut bread (enforced by EULA).
This is similar to what is happening right now with the right to repair of tractors.
That's not the fault of the company that designed, manufactured, and sold the screwdriver, though.
But they won't stop me from doing that either. But they did design the Phillips screwdriver to work optimally with Phillips head screws, so that's what I actually bought it for and use it for.
The EULA doesn't prevent you from wiping your iPhone and doing anything with it. It's your hardware. You won't see any warranty help after that, but that's not their problem at that stage. You can even try to use your iPhone as a hammer, but I wouldn't recommend that either. It wasn't designed that way, but you're totally free to do so.
Personally, I bought my phone to use it the way it was designed, because I liked the design—not in spite of it.
This is true that game consoles are walled gardens. But the question is, what is the market like for game consoles, when you compare common substitutes, as compared to what the market is like for smartphones.
I would argue that the game console market is much less concentrated than the smart phone market.
Anti-competitive practices are only illegal if a company has significant market power. And, IMO, Apple has much more market power than playstation, given that Apple controls about 50% of the smartphone market, in the USA.
> What I can't understand is this argument that Apple specifically shouldn't be allowed to restrict software but game consoles should.
The reason is because Apple controls half the smartphone market, in the USA, whereas game consoles don't have that much market power, especially, if one were to claim that the PC market competes with game consoles. (Which I say that it would. And I would also not say that smartphones compete with game consoles)
Apple's actions only become illegal, because of the combination of both their actions, and the fact that they have significant market power.
By their technical base, yes, but not by their usecase. Consoles have games and apps for media-consumption, but no apps for working, managing your life or other stuff. They are limited in the category of apps they allow, while smartphones and tablets are free for everything (even though they have some restrictions on the type of content they allow in their own app stores).
The discussion is about smartphones, not consoles. And I explained that the technical base is irrelevant for whether it's a walled garden or not, because the purpose and usecase are different. Smartphones and Consoles are both universal computing platforms, but only consoles are also used as a universal device, while consoles are walled by design/purpose. So consoles being walled gardens has no relation to whether smartphones should or should not be walled gardens.
This is a very loose concept that you are arguing should be law. Fine, smartphones are "universal computing" platforms. Tablets are mostly used for media consumption - is the iPad exempt? If a manufacturer releases a Windows PC and calls it a "Home Theater PC", are they now exempt from the "universal platform" rule? If Sony allows users to install other OSs on their PlayStation, the PlayStation now a "universal device"? If a developer releases a calendar application or Slack on the PS4, will the PS4 be converted to a "universal" device?
Or now that we have this carve out for "universal platforms" should Epic continue to pay the Apple 30% because it's a "gaming app"?
Your console carveout is completely arbitrary.
This argument is a fallacy as they all have assistants and do research before making their case/ruling. Replace tech and fishing with any activity you like and the fallacy remains and remains obvious as that.
Never did I say take their word for.
I bet there are people on Law News somewhere who are silently reading HN shaking their heads about how the geeks don’t understand the nuances of the law....
We can go back and forth naming differences between phones and consoles: phones are smaller and have cellular chips, consoles are usually connected to TVs -- but if you can't say why a difference is so fundamental that they should be treated as entirely different classes of things then it doesn't matter.
Here's the fundamental bit:
For the vast majority, it's the primary (often only) way to connect with friends, family, colleagues, employers, news, government services, education, wayfinding, banking, emergency services, the entirety of the worlds information, and the world economy.
It also contains peoples most personal thoughts, search history, intimate conversations/photos, location history, political affiliations, and social graph.
For most of the disabled and/or isolated, it affords them a degree of dignity and inclusion that is life changing.
The above is doubly true in a post Covid world.
So, you can't artificially limit the discussion to technical similarities. The societal implications (the real fundamentals) should matter more than anything. Do you really want a world where we make our decisions based on what's best for society, or solely on what is technically true (smartphones and consoles are both just computers!)
We already treat things differently solely because of their importance to society, safety, health, and the economy. Yes, that does mean smartphones are, in a way, victims of their own success because they will be treated differently.
But that's not any different from other fundamental inventions in history (the printing press, banking, emergency services, automobiles, communications, etc).
NOTE: I'm not advocating for, or against, any specific policy. I'm only pointing out why equating consoles and smartphones is denying some very basic realties about how much the economy and society relies on smart phones (compared to consoles).
And all of what you listed above applies to computers.
The judge’s point is that this - “walled gardens” - is an economically sound and widely-used practice that has not previously been found to be unlawful, and therefore (likely) no basis exists to find in favor of Epic’s claims at this stage of the proceedings.
(Usual disclaimer applies: I am not your lawyer, I will not prepare additional citations, please seek legal counsel before taking action based on anything written above.)
Not unlawful maybe, but unfair? I think the answer is yes.
It's already happened.
Being politically influential, vertically integrated, well organized, and able to negotiate cohesively as a cartel, the Seven Sisters were initially able to exert considerable power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sisters_(oil_companies)
Apple is more powerful, more influential, more vertically integrated and more capitalized than any of those companies.
Do you believe that a US judge can issue a summary judgment against a defendant based solely on fairness, when based solely on case law they are not guilty of any crime? (Apple is the defendant, and US law is biased in favor of defendants in various respects.) I believe that such a finding, whether by a judge or a jury, usually results in the judgment being overturned by the appellate court.
In the context of the Seven Sisters example, then, the simple-test question for finding a judicial bridge for the connection between the Seven Sisters and Apple is below. I use "without basis in law" as a superset of "unfair but not unlawful". I would hazard a guess that the answer to this question is "No." but I haven't researched it further.
"In cases where the US member(s) of the Seven Sisters were defendants, did a judge or jury ever find against them without basis in law, and in such cases, were any of those judgments allowed to stand by the appellate court?"
As Italian, I don' t believe USA can deliver justice at all (I can make tons of examples).
Se also Assange.
To make it clear: this is a discussion board, someone said it's not unlawful, I replied unlawful it's not the only thing that matters.
For example: in US it is not unlawful to not pay maternity leave, it's unlawful in Europe.
It's unfair in general, so, in my opinion, unfair laws should be changed to make society more fair (as fair as possible)
That's the point.
The power Apple detains make opposing to some of their rules unfair (and impossible) hence the laws are somewhat lacking somewhere.
You probably don' t know him, but Enrico Mattei was killed because he broke the seven sister's oligopoly.
When companies are too powerful, they are dangerous.
When they have global power, they are globally dangerous.
If you want a judge to make a decision based on nonexistent law, you will need Congress to pass a law that they can use first.
I think that's a case a person could make in a court of law, but there are also compelling cases for "It's more like a console than not" and for "It's its own thing, a separate category of computing device, which should be beholden to a separate set of rules."
The App Store was one of the value-adds Apple brought to the smartphone ecosystem. In a system of heterogeneous methods to put apps on phones (if the app suite was configurable at all and not pre-loaded onto the device), Apple provided a system where they would do quality curation of the apps that were loaded on the device they made and a clean, obvious method to track the apps a person wanted on their device and install them. No complex configuration, no different-installers-for-different-apps, none of that PC-ecosystem nonsense. Along with the iPhone API (that erred on the side of performance over flexibility), it brought a strong product to market.
It's possible what is offered now isn't the same thing, but I think a case could be made by a competent lawyer that the store is part of the entire product offering and makes for a better consumer product, which is what US antitrust law often hinges on (consumer harm).
The argument that there is some other platform where software is distributed for free relies on that platform being comparable iOS.
If it is comparable to iOS, then consumers can just choose it instead.
Superior for developers because their margins improve. For low margin ones like Spotify that is make or break, especially when you take into account that they are fighting with preinstalled and OS promoted incumbents in both the platforms like Apple Music which are not subjected to the same.
First, this is debatable itself, walled gardens bring their own advantages for developers too. But second, why exactly should developers be the primary concern? There are three parties involved after all: the platform creator/maintainer, the developers, and the users. Why should users not have the choice to essentially collaborate with the platform creator to promote their interests, even at the expense of the developers?
I mean, I know this is HN, and a lot of us wear developer hats. But we tend to wear user hats too, and even in many cases family (or business) support hats. Switching to one of those, developers on open platforms are often jackasses and can develop their own power imbalance vs users. Sometimes (often even!) a single particular piece software can become so vital and represent so much investment that it's much harder to substitute than even the platform itself. At that point any single user faces big hurdles vs the developer. The likes of Adobe and others have repeatedly been able to force very user hostile choices on their customer base because their customers couldn't really coordinate collective action.
One thing Apple offers is a way to buy into a collective action system against developers. For many people that's not a bug, that's a feature, so complaining about how developers are "hurt" or "make less money" isn't going to sway them one bit, quite the contrary. They're generally glad when Apple tells devs their way or the highway[Android/Linux/Mac/Windows]. Of course, this concentration of power also has negative implications too in terms of censorship, inability to do some very useful creative development and utilities, potential for major harm if/when Apple goes bad, etc.
But too many on HN have refused to recognize the strengths and the reasons why it's been popular and to try to find ways to incorporate some or all of those while still allowing power users/misfits/hackers to push the envelope. I think our collective disdain for many regular non-tech users is part of why we've ended up in this mess in the first place.
But for a user, especially a non technical one, a walled garden is a superior ux. Updates automatically, single stop to find anything and easy discovery, no worry of viruses/malware except in extreme circumstances, cheap apps (never seen a .99 app in the wild) etc.
The reason I'm buying an iPhone is I don't have the time to care about how high the walls should be and to ensure every app I use isn't abusing the SDK to suck up data. The reason I'm paying a premium for Apple is I'm choosing to trust them rather than trust every developer.
Unless you don't install any app, you still trust all the developers of the apps you install. Walled garden is just a nice way to name Authoritarianism applied to a platform.
It might make you feel safe to have apple deciding every bits of what you can do with your phone but it does mean that: - it's secure - the apps you are using are - you still have very low control over your data.
You just pay to close your eyes and feel safe.
I’d rather trust Apple than the cumulative two dozen developers that have their software running on my phone.
Where is the evidence that any of that was required?
It's ANY company that offers a closed platform e.g. Shopify addons.
Yes, let's ignore the actual predecessors of smartPHONES, you know, cellPHONES. It makes our argument much easier, much.
A phone. An iPod. A revolutionary internet communicator.
Are you getting it?
I mean, it isn't a big deal there because you can just go purchase these stuff on other stores.
She also glossed over the fact that software can be distributed free with its own payment systems in laptop/desktop OSs like Windows, OS X, Ubuntu etc. When I paid for Sublime I didn't go into an App Store to pay for it.
Smartphone/tablet OSs are logical successors to the laptop/desktop OSs we have not game consoles. They are general purpose computing platforms.