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Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by paxys on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @12:54AM (#24550984)
It's ridiculous that we couldn't coordinate a rent/mortgage forgiveness plan alongside all the customer bans put in place across the country. If a restaurant can't stay open, they shouldn't pay rent. If the property owner isn't getting rent, they shouldn't have to pay mortgage. And so on, up the entire chain.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by JMTQp8lwXL on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:56AM (#24551339)
That's exactly what an economic contraction is. A long chain of payments not being made (regardless of one's legal obligation to do so). Breaking the chain causes new problems.

It reduces spending and purse strings get tightened. When the mortgage doesn't get paid, the mortgage backed security isn't getting its repayments. The retirees living off the dividends from the REIT don't get paid. Then the retiree spends less in the economy, which would've paid the restaurant worker's wages.

When the chain breaks, the whole system is impacted. Think of it as a graph. When payments aren't flowing from one node to the next due to crisis, the solution is to have the government ensure those payments be made via taking on debt in bad times (and less borrowing in good times).

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jjeaff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:54PM (#24558400)
Yes, but let's be honest, most retirees today aren't living off dividends. Except for those who are indirectly living off them through pension plans. And those huge pensions and funds will be the first to receive a bailout.

The vast majority of the ownership of the stock market is owned by the very wealthy.

Most of main street's wealth is in their home, and while home values dropping can hurt them, these assets aren't usually income generating.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by rayiner on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:07AM (#24551044)
Which country implemented rent/mortgage forgiveness? The US implemented mortgage deferral, plus SBA loans for rent for small businesses. The lack of general rent deferral was to force larger companies to bear some of the cost of shut downs. France and Germany didn’t do appreciably more—they simply imposed deferrals or moratorium on eviction.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by ashtonkem on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:40AM (#24551235)
Mortgage and rent deferral is a sad joke.

Most of these businesses could barely keep up during the best of times; the vast majority of them will never be able to repay a single months missed rent, let alone half a years worth.

Mortgage and eviction deferral have only put off the inevitable; without forgivance or direct cash infusions, they’ll still fail, probably right after the last whisps of political will to fix this disappears.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by AniseAbyss on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:20AM (#24551119)
Bankruptcy is a form of debt forgiveness.

I don't see the problem, I see restaurants close only to see a new one move in a few months later. Even during good times its a risky business.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by postpawl on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:25AM (#24551142)
It’s a problem when you consider the trillions more the fed sent to loans for big businesses + banks, buying stocks, and buying mortgage bonds (which also kinda went to banks).
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by wongarsu on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:36AM (#24551217)
Germany put a moratorium on evictions, allows deferral of some taxes, pays small and medium businesses up to three months of lost revenue (up to 150k€) and the state owned development bank gives out low interest loans to affected businesses.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by abduhl on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:39AM (#24551230)
So, not Germany.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by anovikov on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:22AM (#24551130)
How are you going to bail out landlords then? The money isn't going to come from nowhere.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:40AM (#24551238)
Landlords were/are bailed out in US. Landlords are businesses. MY LLC got a 30 year very low fixed interest loan, first 10K of loan automatically forgiven, based solely on the LLC's income from last year. The loan amount was roughly 60% of last year's revenue. Oddly enough, actual lost revenue was about equal to the loan amount, but the gov't had no way of knowing that and didn't even ask. I'm sure every landlord in the country signed up for that or one of the several other coronavirus relief options. Any wonder why the stock market is up? That's a lot of free money sloshing around.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by mjevans on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:31AM (#24551183)
Those seeking rents should be where the buck stops in a paused economy.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by refurb on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:49AM (#24551292)
Collecting rents is not the same as "rent seeking".
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @10:30AM (#24554769)
It's exactly the same. "Rent seeking" means to increase your share of wealth without creating new wealth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by tptacek on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:40PM (#24558240)
It is, kind of obviously, not exactly the same thing, and the 51% of Wikipedians who agreed about the content of that article agree, because it does not support the point you're making. Instead of attempting an axiomatic derivation of the term, you could just link to an actual discussion by economists of the term, most of which make the distinction between the layperson use of the term "rent" and Ricardo and Krueger's definition.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @03:05PM (#24558506)
It’s “the same” in the sense that it’s an example of rent-seeking. Here's another definition [1]:

> David Ricardo introduced the term “rent” in economics. It means the payment to a factor of production in excess of what is required to keep that factor in its present use. So, for example, if I am paid $150,000 in my current job but I would stay in that job for any salary over $130,000, I am making $20,000 in rent.

Similarly, a landlord charges rent in excess of what it costs to maintain the land and building. Unless I’m misunderstanding Ricardo’s definition, that fits neatly inside of it.

[1] https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/RentSeeking.html

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by kasey_junk on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @04:09PM (#24559229)
By that interpretation any profit making is rent seeking.

A landlord is not “rent seeking” just by charging rent. For instance they are providing value in the form of risk arbitrage in most cases.

The only case a landlord is purely rent seeking in the economic sense is if they only captured the difference in value of their properties due to external factors.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by tptacek on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @07:53PM (#24561428)
Right, as I understand it, the "economic rent" (ER) of an apartment lease would be the extent to which the cost of the lease was inflated by artificial scarcity (as opposed to just supply and demand). There are, then, rent-seeking things you could do as a landlord/developer, but in a well-functioning market where you're competing with lots of other landlords, the price of a lease reflects the market value of occupancy and does not include ER.

Similarly, one of the classic examples of ER is wage premiums paid to closed-shop union members: the clearing price for the labor involved is, say, $20, but your union bumps that up to $25; the extra $5 is ER. There is directly substitutable labor that could be acquired at a discount to union labor, but closed-shop rules lock in the extra rents.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by refurb on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:48PM (#24557641)
No it's not. "Rent" is not the same as "economic rent".

If I buy a piece of land a build a house on it and rent it out, I'm adding value to society by creating value.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:18PM (#24558022)
Building the house, specifically, creates value. Renting it out does not.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by sooheon on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:46AM (#24551635)
When it comes to land ownership, I'm pretty sure the two are equivalent.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by xenihn on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:37AM (#24551222)
I always see the argument of "when all the mom & pop landlords are gone, major corporations will own everything, so we have to protect them".

That consolidation is going to happen anyways. It's inevitable. The only factor is how long it takes for it to happen, and how big the payout will be for small landlords when they finally decide to cash out. There's much more at stake for the renters.

Forcing small landlords into choosing between selling immediately or facing bankruptcy in the near future is morally preferable to putting the burden on renters. The world isn't really a worse place if a landlord has to liquidate their assets at a 150% net profit now instead of 320% in ten years (after accounting for all rent collected and taxes paid).

If they had the capital to afford a commercial property in the first place, this won't be potentially life-ruining. You can't assume the same for a non-chain restaurant or grocer that serves as the owner's livelihood.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by apatters on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:05AM (#24551388)
I don't think that consolidation is inevitable at all, Americans are increasingly disillusioned with big business and there is a slowly growing anti-corporate sentiment being expressed (albeit opportunistically) by politicians as varied as Liz Warren, Ron Wyden, Marco Rubio and Trump. Matt Stoller's Substack is a great resource to learn more: https://mattstoller.substack.com/
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by rudedogg on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:03AM (#24551026)
"Trickle-Up Debt Forgiveness".

It sounds nice, but I think it benefits the poor too much to catch on.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by skybrian on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:20AM (#24551125)
I think it’s unsurprising that big changes to the legal system can’t easily be made on an ad-hoc, emergency basis. But that’s no excuse for not preparing for the next crisis.

Contracts should have a “disaster clause” suspending payment during an officially declared disaster. Perhaps Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae could require this for home mortgages?

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by sitver on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:25AM (#24551143)
Look up “Force Majore”
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by tuatoru on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:19AM (#24551469)
Nitpick, that's "force majeure".

French always sounds more impressive.[1][2] Lawyers love to sound grand, as though they're worth what they're paid.

1."Paté de foie" sounds a lot nicer than "liver paste," n'est-ce pas?

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by skybrian on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @11:29AM (#24555639)
Looks like it's often insufficient:

> Q: If a contract does contain a Force Majeure clause that includes “epidemic” or some form of the “other causes beyond the reasonable control of a party” language, does that mean one or more of the contract parties do not have to perform, as a general rule?

> A: Not necessarily. First, it should be noted there is not much jurisprudence in the U.S. that address “epidemics” as a Force Majeure event. So the courts have not, to date, had an opportunity to provide clear interpretation or guidance. That is likely to change soon. Second, there needs to be a real causal connection between the occurrence of a Force Majeure event and a party’s ability or inability to perform under the contract. By way of an over-simplified comparative example, consider today’s situation, where there is undoubtedly an “epidemic” of COVID-19 occurring. Most homeowners cannot simply stop paying monthly home mortgage payments even if the loan documents contain language that includes “epidemic” as a Force Majeure event. This is because the Force Majeure event, as expressly stated in the contract, has not directly created an effect that excuses the homeowner’s performance – to pay monthly installments to the mortgage company. In contrast, if a public school district engages a consultant to observe and evaluate students’ use of a new technology in the classroom, and the contract contains similar Force Majeure language, the government’s decision to temporarily close all public schools because of the epidemic precludes the consultant from completing the evaluation.. Very likely, the Force Majeure clause would excuse the delay in the consultant’s performance.

> In between these very simple examples are countless real-world situations that will likely arise as businesses try to predict their respective futures.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=5e3f36b8-6ce8...

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by altdatathrow on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:22AM (#24551132)
PPP funds were designed for that (60% to payroll, 40% to rent/utils). However, they only provided ~2.5 months of coverage, and we're well beyond that.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by issa on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:27AM (#24551165)
Also, they were very difficult to get. Especially for smaller businesses without bank relationships.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by travisoneill1 on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:29AM (#24551176)
How do you have a business of any size without a banking relationship?
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by troydavis on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:45AM (#24551266)
Rather than “bank relationship,” a clearer phrase would be “existing bank loan.” https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2020/05/where-... examines this:

> For this reason, we turn to testing the hypothesis that variation in the share of small businesses with existing bank financing explains the variation of PPP loans approved across states. The top panel of the figure below shows the share of small businesses with bank financing in 2019, while the bottom panel shows the share of firms receiving PPP loans.

> We can see that there is strong similarity in shading between the top and bottom panels, consistent with the lenders’ preference explanation. This relationship is further confirmed in unreported regressions. Our interpretation is that banks’ preference for their own customers causes the PPP to favor firms with existing lending relationships.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by kgc on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @12:59AM (#24551005)
What's at the top of the chain though?
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by davidw on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:01AM (#24551015)
The Federal Reserve?

It seems like it could have all sort of just been put on 'pause' for the duration of the pandemic.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by bitcoinbutter on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:19AM (#24551110)
The Federal Reserve seems primarily focused on keeping asset prices high. Their policies seem to react directly to downward pressure in the equity markets.

When you consider that the appreciation of these markets only serves to widen the wealth gap, it becomes clear that the Fed's mandate is to preserve the wealth of the rich. They're pursuing "trickle down" economics at full speed, despite the overwhelming evidence that "trickle down" is a myth.

The US population is too busy arguing over race issues and partisan politics to realize the financial system is stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by MiroF on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:30AM (#24551179)
> The Federal Reserve seems primarily focused on keeping asset prices high

Pshh - the Fed is focused on hitting unemployment and inflation targets. Low yields in the credit market shifts investment demand towards equity.

The "downward pressure in the equity market" is also deflationary pressure and accompanied by a rise in unemployment. Just because the two coincide doesn't mean the Feds principal goal is high asset prices.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by Weebs on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @10:13AM (#24554549)
The race issues are part of the financial theft. Racism is used as a tool of division to keep the poor fragmented, people are rightfully trying to destroy that tool.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by alecco on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:42AM (#24551611)
Top of the chain is "dumb money". Like pension funds and municipal or foreign funds. Those got destroyed in 2008.

The Fed can only absorb so much (currently at a record 30% of mortgage bonds). Banks and the financial markets are not stupid and quickly resell everything. In 2008 they were caught with just ONE batch of mortgage backed securities and it bankrupted a couple. It's not going to happen again.

It's dismaying how GP proposes such a terrible idea. And what worries me the most is the majority of voters have the same feel-good ideas. We are going to get screwed from both sides.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jccooper on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:37AM (#24551224)
Banks and/or the Fed. Which also happens to be the easiest place to implement fiscal relief via debt or just plain creating money.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by hieunc229 on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:16AM (#24551092)
If there is forgiveness in the hard time, there should be more to pay in the good time
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by sdoering on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:34AM (#24551211)
Providing space for rent, especially to restaurants, is a gamble already in normal times. So one could argue that missing payments is part of the natural risk property owners have to bear.

On the other hand one could argue, that a government has to pay damages for business lost if they implement regulation shutting down that business.

At least, that is something that is part of modern international trade agreements. I know I shortened the argument here.

What I am trying to get to is the fact that there are no easy answers and that potential solutions will necessarily be colored by political leaning. This is a situation that is new and not solved with an easy fix.

Sadly.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by nartz on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:18AM (#24551106)
This is over simplified. It's better to lose a finger to an infection or cancer, versus have it spread to all parts of the body. Its the same thing with fiscal policy.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by paxys on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:33AM (#24551203)
Except in the present case we ended up with both.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by notyourwork on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @12:59AM (#24551007)
Right - the money handed out isn't going to save businesses that cannot operate safely. Movie theaters and gyms to name a few others also fall into this category.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by _heimdall on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @03:11AM (#24551774)
Economics isn't that simple, you can't invent demand out of thin air and printing money is a very short term solution with huge long term impacts.

Dealing with debt is risky, whether you are the lender or the borrower. I completely agree with opinions that it is utter BS that the government effectively bailed out banks and corporations while leaving the rest out to dry, but the solution isn't further bailouts.

Life sucks sometimes, governments can't fix that. A pandemic spreading fast enough to bring broad shutdowns doesn't come free, and unfortunately small businesses sitting on piles of debt and tight margins are the first to bleed. Economic systems have pros and cons; with Capitalism we often get accelerated growth and innovation but the downside is that when things go south it can be a much faster and deeper cut.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by pfisch on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:00AM (#24551010)
When you go up that chain you will eventually run into a very serious monetary crisis that would crash the banks, the real estate market, and the entire economy.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by twblalock on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:04AM (#24551032)
No, you would end up with another bank bailout, except this time the banks didn't do anything wrong and it was the government's fault for screwing up the pandemic response. In other words, it would be compensation for the government's failure, not a bailout.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by nartz on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:17AM (#24551096)
Everyone wants to blame someone - e.g. its the governments fault! In reality, its just an external force that everyone is dealing with, a plague, if you will - its not anyone's fault; it just must be faced, that during a plague, there will be suffering, and there will be casualties. It's that simple.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by twblalock on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:20AM (#24551117)
No, it is not that simple. There are various ways to respond to a plague, and some are better than others. Some responses result in far more casualties than others, in addition to the economic damage. We can all see that some governments responded well and others did not.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by serial_dev on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:58AM (#24551352)
> we can all see that some governments responded well and others did not.

Can we, though? We are not even half time yet (most likely). How are we going to judge a government in the beginning of a pandemic as if the pandemic was already over? Maybe what looks like a poor strategy now will turn out to be the best later. Same true for the economic bailouts, some countries went harder than others, and it's not yet clear which will work better.

There are some anomalies that's difficult to explain (Sweden, for example). Sure, we can retrofit some model, and imagine we have it all figured out, but could you have predicted it correctly?

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jacobolus on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:38AM (#24551583)
What is the anomaly? Sweden has done substantially worse than all of its neighbors in both lives/health and economic impact. Which was exactly what many people predicted.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by harambae on Thursday September 24, 2020 @03:54PM (#24582844)
It's not clear Sweden has done substantially worse than its neighbors [0] and regardless we're not through this and different countries and counting a number of things differently.

5 years from now when we look at the death certificates from nations with reliable death certificate records, we might have a better idea.

[0] https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-09-21/sweden...

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by refurb on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:51AM (#24551306)
No country is coming out of this unscathed. Even the ones that kept their cases low are going to be in a world of economic hurt. And they have far few ways to weather the storm than Western countries.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by twblalock on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:55AM (#24551332)
You're kidding, right? Look at unemployment rates in the EU or Japan compared to the US. These are all first-world countries and yet there is still a vast difference in outcome.

There are various degrees of being scathed. "Everyone gets scathed" is not an argument. Some did way, way better than others.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by disgruntledphd2 on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @07:58AM (#24553452)
The US made a different set of choices to Western Europe with respect to unemployment. Europe (mostly) chose to maintain existing employment, while the US chose to make unemployment benefits much more generous.

In a short pandemic world, it's likely that the European strategy will perform better, while in a long pandemic world, the US strategy may perform better.

I do agree with the OP though, it's far too early to tell (except letting the unemployment benefits lapse in the US was almost certainly a bad idea).

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by refurb on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:44PM (#24557577)
Why is unemployment rate the definition of "success"? The US expanded unemployment insurance payment significantly. So if the gov't is giving businesses money to keep workers "employed" or just pay them through unemployment insurance, why is one better? It's still a gov't transfer to workers at risk.

And again, I wouldn't call out a "winner" just yet. Those decisions will likely have vastly different impacts post-epidemic.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by pfisch on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @05:36AM (#24552596)
What about all the reits? A lot of bonds are backed by mortgages. If no one is paying rent then aren't all property owners in serious trouble? What about the massive tax hit for all local governments from property taxes. This isn't a simple problem.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by EpicEng on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:19AM (#24551114)
You're going to have to explain that one in detail for me. We have now generated trillions in liquidity for corporations. Maybe I'm dumb; walk me through how this would "crash the banks", real estate, and "the entire economy".
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by alecco on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:54AM (#24551680)
It creates a cascading effect. There's an insane debt bubble and a lot of that debt will lose rating, so many investors will drop it creating a feedback loop. Dumb money have to drop it because of their mandate and/or rules, even if this is bad for their other assets (i.e. more debt they hold).

This would be the dumbest idea right now. I hope government agencies worldwide can resist the attack from media.

[Don't get me wrong, fuck banks, evil hedge funds, and speculative landlords, but they are barely going to be hit by something like this.]

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by alecco on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:46AM (#24551633)
Banks will never, ever get caught with bad debt again. They learned the lesson in 2008. There's even regulation blocking that. This will be "dumb money" so our pensions and government funds. These take ratings agencies at face value and have no nuance and very slow to move on news like GP's feel-good idea.