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Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by rayiner on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:07AM (#24551044)
Which country implemented rent/mortgage forgiveness? The US implemented mortgage deferral, plus SBA loans for rent for small businesses. The lack of general rent deferral was to force larger companies to bear some of the cost of shut downs. France and Germany didn’t do appreciably more—they simply imposed deferrals or moratorium on eviction.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by ashtonkem on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:40AM (#24551235)
Mortgage and rent deferral is a sad joke.

Most of these businesses could barely keep up during the best of times; the vast majority of them will never be able to repay a single months missed rent, let alone half a years worth.

Mortgage and eviction deferral have only put off the inevitable; without forgivance or direct cash infusions, they’ll still fail, probably right after the last whisps of political will to fix this disappears.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by AniseAbyss on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:20AM (#24551119)
Bankruptcy is a form of debt forgiveness.

I don't see the problem, I see restaurants close only to see a new one move in a few months later. Even during good times its a risky business.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by postpawl on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:25AM (#24551142)
It’s a problem when you consider the trillions more the fed sent to loans for big businesses + banks, buying stocks, and buying mortgage bonds (which also kinda went to banks).
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by wongarsu on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:36AM (#24551217)
Germany put a moratorium on evictions, allows deferral of some taxes, pays small and medium businesses up to three months of lost revenue (up to 150k€) and the state owned development bank gives out low interest loans to affected businesses.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by abduhl on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:39AM (#24551230)
So, not Germany.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by anovikov on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:22AM (#24551130)
How are you going to bail out landlords then? The money isn't going to come from nowhere.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by hcknwscommenter on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:40AM (#24551238)
Landlords were/are bailed out in US. Landlords are businesses. MY LLC got a 30 year very low fixed interest loan, first 10K of loan automatically forgiven, based solely on the LLC's income from last year. The loan amount was roughly 60% of last year's revenue. Oddly enough, actual lost revenue was about equal to the loan amount, but the gov't had no way of knowing that and didn't even ask. I'm sure every landlord in the country signed up for that or one of the several other coronavirus relief options. Any wonder why the stock market is up? That's a lot of free money sloshing around.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by mjevans on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:31AM (#24551183)
Those seeking rents should be where the buck stops in a paused economy.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by refurb on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:49AM (#24551292)
Collecting rents is not the same as "rent seeking".
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @10:30AM (#24554769)
It's exactly the same. "Rent seeking" means to increase your share of wealth without creating new wealth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by tptacek on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:40PM (#24558240)
It is, kind of obviously, not exactly the same thing, and the 51% of Wikipedians who agreed about the content of that article agree, because it does not support the point you're making. Instead of attempting an axiomatic derivation of the term, you could just link to an actual discussion by economists of the term, most of which make the distinction between the layperson use of the term "rent" and Ricardo and Krueger's definition.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @03:05PM (#24558506)
It’s “the same” in the sense that it’s an example of rent-seeking. Here's another definition [1]:

> David Ricardo introduced the term “rent” in economics. It means the payment to a factor of production in excess of what is required to keep that factor in its present use. So, for example, if I am paid $150,000 in my current job but I would stay in that job for any salary over $130,000, I am making $20,000 in rent.

Similarly, a landlord charges rent in excess of what it costs to maintain the land and building. Unless I’m misunderstanding Ricardo’s definition, that fits neatly inside of it.

[1] https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/RentSeeking.html

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by kasey_junk on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @04:09PM (#24559229)
By that interpretation any profit making is rent seeking.

A landlord is not “rent seeking” just by charging rent. For instance they are providing value in the form of risk arbitrage in most cases.

The only case a landlord is purely rent seeking in the economic sense is if they only captured the difference in value of their properties due to external factors.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by tptacek on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @07:53PM (#24561428)
Right, as I understand it, the "economic rent" (ER) of an apartment lease would be the extent to which the cost of the lease was inflated by artificial scarcity (as opposed to just supply and demand). There are, then, rent-seeking things you could do as a landlord/developer, but in a well-functioning market where you're competing with lots of other landlords, the price of a lease reflects the market value of occupancy and does not include ER.

Similarly, one of the classic examples of ER is wage premiums paid to closed-shop union members: the clearing price for the labor involved is, say, $20, but your union bumps that up to $25; the extra $5 is ER. There is directly substitutable labor that could be acquired at a discount to union labor, but closed-shop rules lock in the extra rents.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by refurb on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:48PM (#24557641)
No it's not. "Rent" is not the same as "economic rent".

If I buy a piece of land a build a house on it and rent it out, I'm adding value to society by creating value.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:18PM (#24558022)
Building the house, specifically, creates value. Renting it out does not.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by sooheon on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:46AM (#24551635)
When it comes to land ownership, I'm pretty sure the two are equivalent.
Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by xenihn on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @01:37AM (#24551222)
I always see the argument of "when all the mom & pop landlords are gone, major corporations will own everything, so we have to protect them".

That consolidation is going to happen anyways. It's inevitable. The only factor is how long it takes for it to happen, and how big the payout will be for small landlords when they finally decide to cash out. There's much more at stake for the renters.

Forcing small landlords into choosing between selling immediately or facing bankruptcy in the near future is morally preferable to putting the burden on renters. The world isn't really a worse place if a landlord has to liquidate their assets at a 150% net profit now instead of 320% in ten years (after accounting for all rent collected and taxes paid).

If they had the capital to afford a commercial property in the first place, this won't be potentially life-ruining. You can't assume the same for a non-chain restaurant or grocer that serves as the owner's livelihood.

Re:Almost 90 percent of NYC bars and restaurants couldn’t pa... by apatters on Tuesday September 22, 2020 @02:05AM (#24551388)
I don't think that consolidation is inevitable at all, Americans are increasingly disillusioned with big business and there is a slowly growing anti-corporate sentiment being expressed (albeit opportunistically) by politicians as varied as Liz Warren, Ron Wyden, Marco Rubio and Trump. Matt Stoller's Substack is a great resource to learn more: https://mattstoller.substack.com/