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Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by nicoburns on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:34AM (#24491594)
Lack of support for GUI apps such as MS Office, Adobe Creative Suite, etc. It was actually workable with wine a few years back, but that was before everything went to an auto-updating subscription model.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:48AM (#24491671)
I can understand some people have specific needs and have to use software like that, but I wouldn't say an OS doesn't work just because you can't use some software on it.

You can't also have Omnigraffle for Windows, yet nobody would say Windows doesn't work for that reason.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by sneak on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:56AM (#24491720)
Excel is, in and of itself, a single reason alone for many people in various industries to own or operate a computer.

If computers no longer ran Excel, they would buy a dedicated Excel Machine to do it, and put it on their desk next to their computer.

You can make a similar argument about Premiere and After Effects, although the fact that Resolve runs on Linux is helping the situation a little.

The Autodesk products are another case.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by sandworm101 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:36AM (#24493100)
>> Excel is, in and of itself, a single reason alone for many people in various industries to own or operate a computer.

I had a client that suffered an excel/windows ransomware attack. It started with a macro or something in an excel document that, for some reason, everybody seemed to open. My inbox was flooded with "do no open anything" emails. Then the CEO called me to check on the data I had stored on my systems. "Remember when I said I didn't use windows? Your data, at least the copy I have, is safe."

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by justinclift on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @01:21PM (#24494877)
Hopefully they also had a reasonable (and known working!) backup regime in place beforehand. ;)
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:03AM (#24491766)
I know lot of people use excel, and can't live without it. Anyway, the point is that we can blame Linux for kernel or driver issues, its thousands of desktop environments for its bugs, etc, but I don't think it's fair to say that Linux "doesn't work" just because Microsoft will never release Linux versions of their desktop software.

I have a working Linux desktop and I also use spreadsheets in my day to day work.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by moomin on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:02AM (#24492260)
Not to be funny, but OP didn't say it "doesn't work". OP said it wasn't workable, which is a synonym for practical. Something can be 100% fit for one purpose but not for another.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:46AM (#24492668)
Well, he said "it-just-works", but it will never get to that point by its own merits, as it depends on one rival company releasing software for you.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by wyattpeak on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:08AM (#24492841)
Merits don't come into it. It's not an issue of intention or willingness to address problems.

People who need Excel don't refuse to use Linux because they take issue with its stance of not-having-Excel, they don't use Linux because it doesn't have Excel.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by nicoburns on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:08AM (#24491807)
No, but if you are a developer choosing a system to use then this can never-the-less be a good reason for not choosing linux and preferring either macOS or windows with a unix layer.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:27AM (#24491934)
Yes, it's true, but it depends on what your needs are. For example, in my case, as a developer, I prefer not to spend any money on Office software and instead get a higher end CPU.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by larrik on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:02AM (#24492263)
I can barely tell the difference between Excel and LibreOffice Calc with both of them open on the same computer...
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by MegaDeKay on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:25AM (#24492460)
"Then you haven’t really used excel beyond loading a CSV into a table."

Bad example. I've brought LibreOffice to its knees after importing a CSV file: went to adjust a column width and it became non-responsive. And this was within the last year. They have done a lot of performance work on LibreOffice and I appreciate that, but it is a long way away from Excel for serious work.

My favorite snag was on a plot with the X-axis labeled with date text at an angle. I could have horribly aliased ugly fast text, or I could have nicely anti-aliased text that slowed moving around in the sheet to a crawl. But I couldn't have nice text on a spreadsheet I could still work in.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by vetinari on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:16AM (#24492906)
Also bad example.

I've crashed Excel (2016 for Mac) trying to preview CSV I was about to import.

To Microsoft's credit, they eventually fixed it.

What still doesn't work (in Mac version) is ODBC driver for Postgresql (and maybe for other databases; it is shipped with MSSQL driver only). It will also crash Excel. So to work with psql data I have to export them into file and then import into Excel. I cannot have a query saved in the spreadsheet and just refresh it.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by rbanffy on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:42AM (#24493164)
> but it is a long way away from Excel for serious work.

Most people don't use Excel for "serious work". Most people use Excel to make colorful grids of text and some calculated numbers that fit in a common corporate issue 8GB computer.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by larrik on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:23AM (#24503277)
I'm getting downvoted, but the fact is that up until like 10 years ago I vastly preferred Calc over Excel. It had a lot less stupid built in causing me to lose my work. Excel would clear my undo history on save, or close ALL worksheets when I tried to close one (completely different behavior than Word) and I would miss which file it was warning me about.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by dogma1138 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:08AM (#24492320)
Then you haven’t really used excel beyond loading a CSV into a table.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ghshephard on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:03AM (#24493347)
What's odd - is that nobody ever decided to build a reasonable spreadsheet package, or imaging package, or heck, any of a hundred decent packages that are available on OS X and Windows. My day-day job is on Linux (And has so been for the last three years) - but that's because I live on a CLI, and my needs for spreadsheets/presentations are (A) Both very rudimentary, and (B) more often then not done with google docs anyways.

Anybody who had, as their day job, working with spreadsheets would never do it with Libre Office unless they weren't really using them with a lot of data and complexity, or (B) had a bit of a masochistic streak. (Or, I guess (C), were completely dedicated to open software - which is a fair reason I guess).

The two things that will permanently hold back Linux on the desktop (And, remember, I say this as someone who has only worked on Linux for 3+ years now) - is (A) The amazing number of inconsistencies on the desktop environment (Depending on the application, I have 3 separate ways I need to initiate a "copy" - Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Shift+C, Ctrl+Right-Click+Select copy.) and (B) The lack of most decent desktop software (Chrome, Slack excepted - they are pretty much flawless on Linux).

Bringing this back to the original thread - what I would love from Microsoft, is to make Linux a first-rate citizen on Windows. Right now it's 80% of the way their with WSL. Still missing a bunch of networking stuff, and still doesn't run cron/init and friends. But It's getting closer.

Then, we have the best of both worlds - I can do all my work in Linux, and still have access to the rich desktop environment of Windows. So - count me as one person who is really happy that Microsoft is putting effort into advancing their Linux offerings by submitting these Hyper-V support patches into the Linux Kernel.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @05:55PM (#24498455)
Yes, I understand your position. I tend to disagree, because for me, the Windows world is not a better world: I don't specially like the Windows UI, I don't like how updates are done, I value using open-source software and I don't like my vendor to be constantly trying to make me use its software, be it Internet Explorer, Edge or Bing. But if that is the best of both worlds for you, that's great.

However, I feel WSL means using Linux to enhance a product (Windows) while at the same time preventing the growth of that same system in its standalone fashion. Because WSL means you won't be using a lot of the usual Linux desktop stuff, you'll be a pure Windows user in a lot of statistical data, and you won't be helping to make Linux a better OS. Not to say that it can get worse once Microsoft starts releasing Windows-only Linux components for WSL, as (I think) started happening already.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ghshephard on Monday September 21, 2020 @05:59PM (#24548925)
Actually - I think we agree a lot. I'm not a big fan of how updates are shoved down your throat and the system rebooted, (Though I do like the Fast/Slow/Preview/Full Release approach towards development that provides weekly releases if you want to live dangerous, and cautious well baked pre-releases of features 3-4 months before the public beta/full release)- much higher quality releases than the OS X Once-A-Year release). I definitely value using open-source software, not only because I find it to be higher-quality for what I do (data engineering) - but also the control and freedom I get from it. I am absolutely opposed to the Operating System vendor forcing stuff down my throat (One reason why I don't like SNAP on Ubuntu - it's kind of cruddy and forces us to use their store).

Remember - I use Linux all day for a reason - it's the better tool for the job I do.

But - Linux is incredibly lacking in highly-polished commercial software. I miss the dozens of beautifully crafted packages on OS X, and their somewhat less crafted variants on Windows constantly. That final finish, and careful craftsmanship that occurs from making every button, every font, every round-rec flawless - is something that, for the most parts - is completely absent on Linux.

I am a contrarian when it comes to Microsoft and Linux - I genuinely believe that they are going to do the right thing (And I say this as a Former Netscape Employee who knows all to well their EEE pattern) - particularly if we get to use the full desktop experience in WSL - then we'll know they are really on the right path.

But - by and large, I'm guessing we agree way more than disagree on stuff.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by de_watcher on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:42AM (#24491643)
So make these apps work on Linux. They go instead inventing VMs and hypervisors to extend their walled gardens.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by colejohnson66 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:00AM (#24492233)
How does this extend their walled garden? The kernel doesn’t just accept patches willy nilly.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by de_watcher on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:01AM (#24493328)
How does this extend their walled garden? They want to capture Linux/MacOS users with that development.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by colejohnson66 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:45AM (#24493755)
Enticing developers to use their platform isn’t “extending their walled garden.” In a healthy free market, competition is good. Microsoft is encouraging using Linux, just through a VM instead of dual booting (or even removing Windows).

Vendor lock-in, OTOH, would be a valid criticism. But again, this is not that.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by throw_m239339 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:47AM (#24492122)
Exactly. All these software companies could probably make their apps run on Linux at a minimal development cost. They just don't want to. Microsoft because they want people to use Windows, Adobe for whatever reason.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by tester34 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:33AM (#24492536)
but they did afaik? there's Excel online.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by de_watcher on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:59AM (#24493310)
The whole 'online' thing is the soft entry into the OS war by Google by the means of diminishing of the role of the OS: the OS is like a bootloader for the browser. Browser takes the responsibility of the OS shell and main applications (mail, drive, docs, chat...). So that's a slightly different topic.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by diffeomorphism on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:00AM (#24493318)
Which is hardly comparable to excel.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:11AM (#24492346)
That is not really Linux' fault though. If you all keep buying this auto-updating subscription crap you are sending the signal to the companies involved that you bought in to their view. The only way to make them reconsider is to stop using it.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by whoopdedo on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:25AM (#24492988)
No one was given the choice. Or the choice was to "upgrade" to a subscription or throw away the technical investment in the platform, starting from scratch with a new and unfamiliar and usually less capable software.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by jacquesm on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:14AM (#24493447)
When I get ripped off by a party I go elsewhere. I don't say 'oh wow, that was bad, let's see what other creative ways of ripping me off they will find in the future'.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by rbanffy on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:52AM (#24493256)
When I really need to run a Windows application, I fire up a VM and use it. KVM's desktop experience is lacking, but VirtualBox is excellent.

And the VMs are nicely contained, disk volumes can have copy-on-write snapshots, and the volumes can even be made immutable - you shut the VM down and, when you restart, it's back to its immutable state. This is becoming less than practical thanks to various self-updating things - you need to make them mutable, let the self-updates happen and then you can make them immutable again. Otherwise they'll self update a lot on every boot.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by paulryanrogers on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:40AM (#24493711)
But they are slow and/or require more expensive hardware. Dual booting or these para-virtualized solutions help somewhat. Time efficiency, finances, and technical aptitude may vary widely.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by rbanffy on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @03:17PM (#24496360)
It's a trade-off. It's a bit slower, but not much, and you'll need to have a little extra memory, say 4 gigabytes, if you want to do everything inside the VM and just have some breathing room outside it. OTOH, you'll get the isolation I mentioned and the safety of doing backups with full volume snapshots.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ekianjo on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:00AM (#24491740)
> Lack of support for GUI apps such as MS Office,

not the same but you have Office 365 that does a reasonable job for most documents out there.

On the other hand, not having Office is kind of a feature, it makes you learn better tools :)

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by colejohnson66 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:04AM (#24492277)
> On the other hand, not having Office is kind of a feature, it makes you learn better tools

Replace “Office” with Photoshop, Autodesk, Altium, etc. and it becomes very clear why this isn’t true. The Big Guys(tm) aren’t popular because they’re Windows and macOS programs; They’re popular because they do practically everything and no alternative comes close.

Sure, there is the bit about market dominance which leads to people learning just that tool which leads to further dominance (this is true of Photoshop especially). There’s also the bit about tools not getting better if no one uses them. But one would be hard pressed to find programs as capable as those mentioned earlier.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by arvinsim on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:04AM (#24491774)
> On the other hand, not having Office is kind of a feature, it makes you learn better tools :)

I think this kind of attitude is why Linux on the desktop will probably never be mainstream.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by absove on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:45AM (#24493184)
I don't think this attitude is the reason why Microsoft won't port the Office suite to linux.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ekianjo on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @12:54PM (#24494534)
> why Linux on the desktop will probably never be mainstream.

It does not need to be mainstream to be useful.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by dependenttypes on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @01:59PM (#24495321)
What kind of attitude do you think would make Linux on desktop mainstream?
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by rbanffy on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:44AM (#24493178)
It being used by those who don't refuse to learn better tools is kind of a feature too. ;-)
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by MegaDeKay on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:16AM (#24492398)
If you mean the web apps, they work until they don't. Often it is a function you would never expect:

- in Excel, you can clear conditional formatting rules but you can't manage them. And text in text boxes turn into images that can't be edited, only moved.

- in Word, formulas turn to images. Complex tables break.

- Visio... well, there is no web app version of Visio.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by IHLayman on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:49AM (#24493226)
I haven't used Visio in almost a decade. I have used draw.io a lot in that time, and it is more than sufficient. Plus, it easily embeds into Confluence which is something I use daily.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by speedgoose on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:45AM (#24492100)
What are the better tools?
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by rbanffy on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:44AM (#24493180)
It depends on what you are doing, but when I have to manipulate gigantic grids of numbers, I use Pandas. When I am just doing normal mere mortal spreadsheety stuff, I use LibreOffice or Google Sheets.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ekianjo on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @01:00PM (#24494606)
Command line tools, or Python/R for anything that requires large data processing and repeatable workflows.