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Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:48AM (#24491671)
I can understand some people have specific needs and have to use software like that, but I wouldn't say an OS doesn't work just because you can't use some software on it.

You can't also have Omnigraffle for Windows, yet nobody would say Windows doesn't work for that reason.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by sneak on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @07:56AM (#24491720)
Excel is, in and of itself, a single reason alone for many people in various industries to own or operate a computer.

If computers no longer ran Excel, they would buy a dedicated Excel Machine to do it, and put it on their desk next to their computer.

You can make a similar argument about Premiere and After Effects, although the fact that Resolve runs on Linux is helping the situation a little.

The Autodesk products are another case.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by sandworm101 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:36AM (#24493100)
>> Excel is, in and of itself, a single reason alone for many people in various industries to own or operate a computer.

I had a client that suffered an excel/windows ransomware attack. It started with a macro or something in an excel document that, for some reason, everybody seemed to open. My inbox was flooded with "do no open anything" emails. Then the CEO called me to check on the data I had stored on my systems. "Remember when I said I didn't use windows? Your data, at least the copy I have, is safe."

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by justinclift on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @01:21PM (#24494877)
Hopefully they also had a reasonable (and known working!) backup regime in place beforehand. ;)
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:03AM (#24491766)
I know lot of people use excel, and can't live without it. Anyway, the point is that we can blame Linux for kernel or driver issues, its thousands of desktop environments for its bugs, etc, but I don't think it's fair to say that Linux "doesn't work" just because Microsoft will never release Linux versions of their desktop software.

I have a working Linux desktop and I also use spreadsheets in my day to day work.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by moomin on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:02AM (#24492260)
Not to be funny, but OP didn't say it "doesn't work". OP said it wasn't workable, which is a synonym for practical. Something can be 100% fit for one purpose but not for another.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:46AM (#24492668)
Well, he said "it-just-works", but it will never get to that point by its own merits, as it depends on one rival company releasing software for you.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by wyattpeak on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:08AM (#24492841)
Merits don't come into it. It's not an issue of intention or willingness to address problems.

People who need Excel don't refuse to use Linux because they take issue with its stance of not-having-Excel, they don't use Linux because it doesn't have Excel.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by nicoburns on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:08AM (#24491807)
No, but if you are a developer choosing a system to use then this can never-the-less be a good reason for not choosing linux and preferring either macOS or windows with a unix layer.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @08:27AM (#24491934)
Yes, it's true, but it depends on what your needs are. For example, in my case, as a developer, I prefer not to spend any money on Office software and instead get a higher end CPU.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by larrik on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:02AM (#24492263)
I can barely tell the difference between Excel and LibreOffice Calc with both of them open on the same computer...
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by MegaDeKay on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:25AM (#24492460)
"Then you haven’t really used excel beyond loading a CSV into a table."

Bad example. I've brought LibreOffice to its knees after importing a CSV file: went to adjust a column width and it became non-responsive. And this was within the last year. They have done a lot of performance work on LibreOffice and I appreciate that, but it is a long way away from Excel for serious work.

My favorite snag was on a plot with the X-axis labeled with date text at an angle. I could have horribly aliased ugly fast text, or I could have nicely anti-aliased text that slowed moving around in the sheet to a crawl. But I couldn't have nice text on a spreadsheet I could still work in.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by vetinari on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:16AM (#24492906)
Also bad example.

I've crashed Excel (2016 for Mac) trying to preview CSV I was about to import.

To Microsoft's credit, they eventually fixed it.

What still doesn't work (in Mac version) is ODBC driver for Postgresql (and maybe for other databases; it is shipped with MSSQL driver only). It will also crash Excel. So to work with psql data I have to export them into file and then import into Excel. I cannot have a query saved in the spreadsheet and just refresh it.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by rbanffy on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @10:42AM (#24493164)
> but it is a long way away from Excel for serious work.

Most people don't use Excel for "serious work". Most people use Excel to make colorful grids of text and some calculated numbers that fit in a common corporate issue 8GB computer.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by larrik on Thursday September 17, 2020 @07:23AM (#24503277)
I'm getting downvoted, but the fact is that up until like 10 years ago I vastly preferred Calc over Excel. It had a lot less stupid built in causing me to lose my work. Excel would clear my undo history on save, or close ALL worksheets when I tried to close one (completely different behavior than Word) and I would miss which file it was warning me about.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by dogma1138 on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @09:08AM (#24492320)
Then you haven’t really used excel beyond loading a CSV into a table.
Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ghshephard on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @11:03AM (#24493347)
What's odd - is that nobody ever decided to build a reasonable spreadsheet package, or imaging package, or heck, any of a hundred decent packages that are available on OS X and Windows. My day-day job is on Linux (And has so been for the last three years) - but that's because I live on a CLI, and my needs for spreadsheets/presentations are (A) Both very rudimentary, and (B) more often then not done with google docs anyways.

Anybody who had, as their day job, working with spreadsheets would never do it with Libre Office unless they weren't really using them with a lot of data and complexity, or (B) had a bit of a masochistic streak. (Or, I guess (C), were completely dedicated to open software - which is a fair reason I guess).

The two things that will permanently hold back Linux on the desktop (And, remember, I say this as someone who has only worked on Linux for 3+ years now) - is (A) The amazing number of inconsistencies on the desktop environment (Depending on the application, I have 3 separate ways I need to initiate a "copy" - Ctrl+C, Ctrl+Shift+C, Ctrl+Right-Click+Select copy.) and (B) The lack of most decent desktop software (Chrome, Slack excepted - they are pretty much flawless on Linux).

Bringing this back to the original thread - what I would love from Microsoft, is to make Linux a first-rate citizen on Windows. Right now it's 80% of the way their with WSL. Still missing a bunch of networking stuff, and still doesn't run cron/init and friends. But It's getting closer.

Then, we have the best of both worlds - I can do all my work in Linux, and still have access to the rich desktop environment of Windows. So - count me as one person who is really happy that Microsoft is putting effort into advancing their Linux offerings by submitting these Hyper-V support patches into the Linux Kernel.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by severino on Wednesday September 16, 2020 @05:55PM (#24498455)
Yes, I understand your position. I tend to disagree, because for me, the Windows world is not a better world: I don't specially like the Windows UI, I don't like how updates are done, I value using open-source software and I don't like my vendor to be constantly trying to make me use its software, be it Internet Explorer, Edge or Bing. But if that is the best of both worlds for you, that's great.

However, I feel WSL means using Linux to enhance a product (Windows) while at the same time preventing the growth of that same system in its standalone fashion. Because WSL means you won't be using a lot of the usual Linux desktop stuff, you'll be a pure Windows user in a lot of statistical data, and you won't be helping to make Linux a better OS. Not to say that it can get worse once Microsoft starts releasing Windows-only Linux components for WSL, as (I think) started happening already.

Re:Microsoft submits Linux kernel patches to enable complete... by ghshephard on Monday September 21, 2020 @05:59PM (#24548925)
Actually - I think we agree a lot. I'm not a big fan of how updates are shoved down your throat and the system rebooted, (Though I do like the Fast/Slow/Preview/Full Release approach towards development that provides weekly releases if you want to live dangerous, and cautious well baked pre-releases of features 3-4 months before the public beta/full release)- much higher quality releases than the OS X Once-A-Year release). I definitely value using open-source software, not only because I find it to be higher-quality for what I do (data engineering) - but also the control and freedom I get from it. I am absolutely opposed to the Operating System vendor forcing stuff down my throat (One reason why I don't like SNAP on Ubuntu - it's kind of cruddy and forces us to use their store).

Remember - I use Linux all day for a reason - it's the better tool for the job I do.

But - Linux is incredibly lacking in highly-polished commercial software. I miss the dozens of beautifully crafted packages on OS X, and their somewhat less crafted variants on Windows constantly. That final finish, and careful craftsmanship that occurs from making every button, every font, every round-rec flawless - is something that, for the most parts - is completely absent on Linux.

I am a contrarian when it comes to Microsoft and Linux - I genuinely believe that they are going to do the right thing (And I say this as a Former Netscape Employee who knows all to well their EEE pattern) - particularly if we get to use the full desktop experience in WSL - then we'll know they are really on the right path.

But - by and large, I'm guessing we agree way more than disagree on stuff.