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Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by zepto on Friday September 11, 2020 @01:15PM (#24444955)
This is great in principle, but it’s only a starting point - there are huge issues that are left unaddressed.

The biggest issue is that it presents status as if it can be conferred independently of power, or as if we can change the dynamics purely by changing the way we think about this.

Managers have power for many reasons - they generally do have a significant influence over subordinate’s career prospects, and they have access to all kinds of organizational information that ICs simply can’t obtain, at the very least because they can usually spend time in conversation with other managers or in meetings with people at higher levels in the organization.

Engineers obtain power through indispensable or highly valued domain expertise or institutional knowledge.

Both forms of power are real and confer status.

If you move from management to engineering and your power as a manager is not replaced with corresponding power as an engineer then you have been demoted in status, irrespective of how the organization claims to value people.

Organizations that want to deny this, even with the most positive intentions end up gaslighting their employees. I.e. saying things like “Our organization doesn’t see these moves as a demotion”, when manifestly the individual’s power and status has changed in a way they and everyone else can directly perceive.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by jgeada on Friday September 11, 2020 @02:07PM (#24445562)
ICs largely wield informal power within organizations, managers have real formal power, codified in organizations charts, rules and regulations. Whenever there is conflict between the two, almost always formal power wins over informal. Not the least because managers control salaries and hire/fire decisions.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by zepto on Friday September 11, 2020 @02:53PM (#24446101)
Agreed, although on top of that there is usually an informal power structure within the formal one of the management hierarchy based on who is favored by those above them at a given time.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by mathgladiator on Friday September 11, 2020 @03:29PM (#24446437)
The key for those with informal power is how to leverage it to leverage the formal. Get managers to trust you, and you can have both.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by user5994461 on Friday September 11, 2020 @03:57PM (#24446694)
That's still nowhere near the power of official management.

At a bare minimum a manager can summon their underlings, they will come and listen because they depend on him for promotions and have to make a good impression.

Try to get your teams or coworkers to do some tasks as an engineer. You will quickly realize you have no power.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by pavel_lishin on Friday September 11, 2020 @04:20PM (#24446929)
I mean, this varies team by team and company by company. To spit an anecdote into the bucket, I asked some teammates to help me take care of a problem, and they did - and I don't think I hold a particularly large cache of informal power.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by user5994461 on Friday September 11, 2020 @04:33PM (#24447056)
Send a meeting invitation and see how many people show up. Preferably a videocall or a presentation, something not too attractive to come to.

Then do the same thing as a random employee. See the difference in how much of your team doesn't show up and absolutely nobody from the other team across the corridor comes.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday September 11, 2020 @06:56PM (#24448175)
> Then do the same thing as a random employee. See the difference in how much of your team doesn't show up and absolutely nobody from the other team across the corridor comes.

And then do it not as a random employee, but as the senior employee who isn't technically anyone's manager but who is known for having saved the last 3 major projects by pointing out pivotal details and coordinating with other teams, and observe that everyone who's worked with that person shows up regardless of the org chart. YMMV, but let's compare apples to apples.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by user5994461 on Saturday September 12, 2020 @08:59AM (#24452079)
> and observe that everyone who's worked with that person shows up regardless of the org chart

Too bad it's only a handful of people.

Well, maybe less than a handful because most of the people you saved in the past 3 years have moved on to another company or another role. They're not here for you anymore.

However the manager got that power instantly since the minute he joined, by virtue of the position. It's not an apple to apple comparison indeed.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by mathgladiator on Friday September 11, 2020 @10:27PM (#24449323)
It's strange when one has this power, and managers do fear it. They learn to set expectations and modes of engagement with senior ICs.

What's really fun is when you can make a bunch of managers super nervous by mentioning "You know, we should re-org this." and this can trigger all sorts of shit.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by xxpor on Friday September 11, 2020 @07:43PM (#24448526)
Uh, I can't say I've ever had this happen to me as an IC, even when I was brand new. Maybe one or two people will decline, but it's almost always because they just have a conflict or something.

What you describe sounds totally dysfunctional. If someone is calling a meeting, I assume it's for a good reason from their perspective (even if I think the assumptions they're making are dumb or something).

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by pavel_lishin on Friday September 11, 2020 @09:54PM (#24449190)
If the invitation has no other context, I would PM the person calling the meeting asking what's going on - whether they're the newest hire, or the CTO.

If the meeting is something where I'm needed, I'll attend, whether it was scheduled by the newest hire or the CTO.

If it's not, I won't, etc., etc.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by srtjstjsj on Friday September 11, 2020 @10:00PM (#24449218)
The manager's job is to communicate necessary information to the whole team. The IC isn't. If a manager starts abusing that presumption to schedule irrelevant meetings, people will respond appropriately.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by mathgladiator on Friday September 11, 2020 @10:28PM (#24449325)
or, worse, if the senior IC doesn't show up, then no one takes it seriously.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by aeternum on Friday September 11, 2020 @04:41PM (#24447127)
Exactly. We've gotten rid of managers or created brand new roles in order to retain key engineers. Managers are often easier to replace than these engineers.

If you're an IC that is providing clear & visible value to upper-management you likely wield more power than you think.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by kelnos on Friday September 11, 2020 @05:07PM (#24447330)
The opposite of that is more common I think, and really pisses me off. More often, I think, upper management will protect the lower managers and side with them whenever there's a dispute with an IC, even intentionally pushing the IC out.

My assumption is that upper management doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake in hiring their subordinate managers. And all of this just goes to reinforce the existing power structures.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by nip180 on Friday September 11, 2020 @08:30PM (#24448788)
> My assumption is that upper management doesn't want to admit they've made a mistake in hiring their subordinate managers.

Avoiding situations like this is why we praise failure. When someone says “I made a mistake, this is what I learned, and this is how I will avoid making the same mistake” I give them much more respect then when they are just accepting bad outcomes.

Edit: And when I work with someone for longer than a year and they haven’t claimed any failures I assume they are either covering them up, not noticing them, or not engaging in risky enough behavior.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by john4534243 on Saturday September 12, 2020 @02:01AM (#24450219)
In other words you are asking to suck managers dick irrespective of your skill set and work ethic.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by darkerside on Friday September 11, 2020 @05:41PM (#24447629)
Managers win in the short term. In the long term, the winner is _usually_ but not always, the person who was right.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by ric2b on Sunday September 13, 2020 @04:28PM (#24463723)
Hard to get to the long-term if they fire you.
Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by TheOtherHobbes on Friday September 11, 2020 @07:21PM (#24448373)
Mangers are officer class, in charge of strategy and punishment/reward, seniors are NCO class, in charge of tactics, execution, and frontline people management.

Managers should also be in charge of morale and motivational management. Some understand this and are good at it, others don't and aren't.

Re:If management isn't a promotion, then engineering isn't a... by john4534243 on Saturday September 12, 2020 @02:04AM (#24450228)
In my experience at non-FAANG organizations managers are people who don't have the capability to code and they barely managed to survive so far.