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Re:Read Fewer Books by paganel on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:19AM (#24419025)
> I am not a religion apologists, but his videos and lectures are structured exactly the same way as sermons. He even feigns a false pastor modesty

I highly recommend Jacques Ellul's "Les nouveaux possédés." (translated in English as "The New Demons" [1]) an analysis written back in 1973 describing this exact process you're describing, i.e. modern stuff (rock stars among others) trying to fill the hole of the disappearing religion. Ever since I've read the book I cannot attend a big music concert or a crowded football match without thinking about it (before this pandemic started, of course).

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1362676.The_New_Demons

Re:Read Fewer Books by jaaron on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @01:34PM (#24423500)
I was raised in a highly devout religious environment. I was a true believer myself.

One of the more remarkable experiences of my early adult life was attending a sales conference. I couldn't believe how much that business event felt like a _religious_ event to me. The format, the language, the emotions... I recognized all of these.

I'm no longer religious in the same way, but those experiences have made me particularly sensitive the power of faith and community. Once you know what you're looking for, you start to see it everywhere: in businesses, in politics, in fandom. People want belonging and a sense of being part of something greater than themselves. Belief in the supernatural is not required to engender that feeling.

Re:Read Fewer Books by mercer on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:44AM (#24430584)
My background is pentecostal/evangelical, and I was also a true believer well into my twenties. I mostly left on good terms with God; not being able to believe in his existence just made it difficult to be in a relationship.

The expertise in 'marketing' in this environment was incredible, and I've been both surprised and somewhat relieved to find that for the most part nobody 'outside the fold' seems to properly study how it works and apply it to stuff like selling their startup, especially startups that rely on some degree of community... Some do, but it's surprisingly rare to me.

For a brief time I got involved with the School of Life / Church for Atheists stuff in a desire to find some of what I've lost since leaving church, and I was astounded to find that they seemed to mostly try to emulate all the worst parts of what made 'church life' work.

For examples, the Evangelicals/Pentecostals figured out that rock concert-style Sunday services work to get people interested, but the attrition rate is terrible. Instead, to get people to stay and become part of the church, emphasizing the 'small groups' (~12 people meeting weekly) is by far the most effective strategy. Make people spend time in a small subcommunity and eat together, and you got a member!

So what does School of Life do with their 'Sunday Assemblies'? Awkwardly emulate church but neglect the 'small group' aspect, and hoping that somehow this is more successful than, say, the rapidly-dying Catholic/Protestant churches that mostly rely on boring Sunday services.

Re:Read Fewer Books by tomxor on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @01:47PM (#24423669)
> People want belonging and a sense of being part of something greater than themselves. Belief in the supernatural is not required to engender that feeling.

I agree, but feel like this is a not a bad thing most of the time (even though it can be), and I say this as an atheist in the traditional sense, with iconoclastic tendencies when provoked...

Re:Read Fewer Books by novok on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:05PM (#24423887)
The problem, is the same faults of religious movements happen with these religions-without-the-supernatural, but as an atheist you don't have the same supernatural to mock as a defense.

You see faith based reasoning and very strong emotional reactions to things that are not real.

Re:Read Fewer Books by tomxor on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:27PM (#24426117)
On second thought you are right, there is a lot of faith base nonsense going on, especially post-facebook.
Re:Read Fewer Books by BurningFrog on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:34PM (#24424185)
You can also think of it as religious events are a lot like sales conferences.
Re:Read Fewer Books by ideamotor on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:36AM (#24419145)
That’s interesting, I’ll check it out. I often tell folks that without concerts I am going on without my religion. And the best concerts are those where the most attendees most actively participate. This human need for group belonging will be fulfilled one way or another. Concerts, sports, protests, war - go on down the line (granted I think churches fit in further towards the end ...). There is a psychological cost to shutting these events down that must also be considered.
Re:Read Fewer Books by arvinsim on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:36AM (#24419144)
Sport is not so much a modern relaxation as a new religion; and is more serious and unsmiling even than most new religions. - G. K. Chesterton
Re:Read Fewer Books by arethuza on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @06:56AM (#24419647)
Not sure it is that new - Constantinople had feuding groups who supported different chariot racing teams.

As a Scot I can't help be amused that the greatest rivalry was between the Blues and Greens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Firm

Re:Read Fewer Books by idolaspecus on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:28PM (#24422700)
I can’t help but take this chance to recommend Guy Gavriel Kay’s Sailing to Sarantium. It’s an absolute masterpiece of a novel set in Byzantium just after the Nika Riots; the chariot races and Blue/Green dynamic play a big role in the plot.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/104097.Sailing_to_Sarant...

Re:Read Fewer Books by arethuza on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:21PM (#24425489)
I can recommend Istanbul: A Tale of Three Cities by Bettany Hughes:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22711736-istanbul

Re:Read Fewer Books by rgoulter on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:40AM (#24419173)
"Sports is to war as pornography is to sex." — Jonathan Haidt
Re:Read Fewer Books by Cro_on on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:21PM (#24422614)
Except that the universal adoption of sports would result in a net positive. The same cannot be said for pornography.

Also it makes just as much sense like this: 'sports is to sex as pornography is to war.'

Re:Read Fewer Books by shoes_for_thee on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @01:12PM (#24423205)
It's easy to miss the point of any analogy if you try hard enough.
Re:Read Fewer Books by webmaven on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @10:14PM (#24428248)
> Except that the universal adoption of sports would result in a net positive. The same cannot be said for pornography.

By adoption of sports, do you mean universal participation or spectation?

The former I suppose would be a net positive, if you limit the requirement to just making sure everyone does at least some physical activity every day, but if you mean that everyone should be required to play some sport as a significant pastime the negatives start reducing the net positive.

If the latter, I must vehemently disagree. We would probably be better off banning spectator sports entirely rather than making everyone watch.

Re:Read Fewer Books by Cro_on on Thursday September 10, 2020 @09:08AM (#24431966)
Just a quick way to say that I think a little exercise goes a long way :)
Re:Read Fewer Books by RugnirViking on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:59PM (#24423050)
Presumably that is because war is bad and sex is not bad?
Re:Read Fewer Books by edgarvaldes on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:19PM (#24424035)
I think it referes to the spectactle aspect of sports
Re:Read Fewer Books by andi999 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:32AM (#24419118)
Nowadays I am thinking that the 'we are more popular than jesus' quote is actually deeper than it was probably intended.
Re:Read Fewer Books by playingchanges on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @11:31AM (#24422111)
Thanks for that, very interesting topic. But surely large sporting events have existed alongside large religion for some thousands of years (Roman events are the obvious example). Perhaps both trying to get at the same thing but not being that thing themselves.
Re:Read Fewer Books by dominotw on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:05PM (#24422440)
> Jacques Ellul

doesn't seem to fit gp's "people who have done something" crietia.

Re:Read Fewer Books by paganel on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:23PM (#24422639)
This is a cheap shot at Ellul, as he has been proved more right than wrong even though he was writing about technology and our technological society since the 1960s-1970s (a very difficult thing to achieve, being right on technology, that is). As such, I personally think that he has “done” a lot more compared to other people, witness how even FB multi-millionaires have started following him and his ideas (knowingly or unknowingly).
Re:Read Fewer Books by dominotw on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:51PM (#24424385)
> This is a cheap shot at Ellul,

No i was questioning GP's point. Nothing to do with Ellul. I personally don't care if the author has "done something"

Re:Read Fewer Books by sifar on Thursday September 10, 2020 @01:49AM (#24429269)
Ellul, I would like to think, is someone who came back from the Abyss without losing himself.

Preserving once sanity while reading him is difficult enough, imagine what you would have to go through while you think through these things for years.

Re:Read Fewer Books by WaltPurvis on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @02:26PM (#24424094)
Odd comment, given that aside from writing a few ephemeral books and engaging in a ton of pontificating, the only thing Taleb has ever done in his life is move money around on computers for the sole purpose of enriching himself, while Ellul was active in the French Resistance and was honored for his actions to save Jews from the Nazis.

I guess it depends on what one means by "doing something."