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Re:Understanding Daemons by kreetx on Friday September 04, 2020 @12:13AM (#24371652)
For those not in the know, what's wrong with systemd's design?
Re:Understanding Daemons by unionpivo on Friday September 04, 2020 @04:38AM (#24372995)
For me:

Systemd is good init replacement, ok ntp replacement, so-so logging deamon replacement , and shitty DNS resolver replacement.

I like the init part, i could do without everything else.

But the thing I hate the most about it is that if you question any part of it like DNS, you are labeled as a systemd hater.

Re:Understanding Daemons by raziel2p on Friday September 04, 2020 @04:44AM (#24373025)
Just disable the parts you don't like on your system. I disable resolved everywhere I can and don't feel the need to go complaining about it. Where are you being labeled a systemd hater? Possibly it's more tone of voice than what you're complaining about.
Re:Understanding Daemons by unionpivo on Friday September 04, 2020 @05:06AM (#24373161)
I do, where I can. But with our clients It's often impossible (due to politics) to control all of the clients on the network, so I can't disable parts I don't like.

So I have to find workarounds, like intercepting DNS queries on network level, to fix what used to work before.

And if dnssec ever gets implemented, that wont work either.

Re:Understanding Daemons by eptcyka on Friday September 04, 2020 @10:56AM (#24375471)
Why do you need to intercept DNS queries on the network level? Can't you configure systemd-resolved to do what you need it to do?

Also, dnssec is implemented, and it works.

Re:Understanding Daemons by unionpivo on Friday September 04, 2020 @12:38PM (#24376509)
Sure if I have access to the host, which I often don't[1].

I wrote whole wall of text but at the end of the day, its not that big of a deal, It's more annoying explaing to customers that they have to talk to their other vendors to fix their configs, so sometimes just network level hack is easier.

[1] In enterprise environment and even some SMB environment its somewhat common (at least here in South EU) that big vendors just drop black boxes to you (usually in a form of vmware image, lately sometimes Docker containers). A lot of them are just stock RH, or Ubuntu with their software. ANd that comes with default fallback to goolge or cloudfalre DNS's

Re:Understanding Daemons by eptcyka on Sunday September 06, 2020 @07:15AM (#24390577)
What has systemd-resolved got to do with the fact that you have to use black-boxes? If they had used no DNS management at all and instead just dumped entries in /etc/resolv.conf, you'd be just as SoL as you are now with systemd-resolved. If you can write to /etc/systemd, you can set whatever DNS config you want in the config file for systemd-resolved. I fail to see how our woes with bad software products have anything to do with systemd-resolved.
Re:Understanding Daemons by unionpivo on Sunday September 06, 2020 @01:10PM (#24392838)
Most black boxes are just default linux distro with their vendor software on top.

Before systemd, you just needed to set correct DHCP config and it would all just work.

But nowdays distros come with systemd-resolved which usualy has (by deafult) fallback public DNS servers.

That means that boxes suddenly can switch from your DHCP network provided DNS servers (or even static DNS servers) to goolge (or cloudflare,) public DNS server.

Bottom line is, it used to be enough to set DNS server through DHCP (or static ones) that is no longer enough in some situations.

Re:Understanding Daemons by eptcyka on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @12:24PM (#24409948)
I'm not entirely certain that it is systemd-resolved's fault that the distro maintainers are setting default servers in the config. I'm not disputing that RHEL might, but debian certainly does not, nor any of the distros I've used recently, but I probably have a completely different perspective as I have to deal with more end-user focused distros. I do feel your pain though, DNS config management seems to be incredibly hard. And this fuckery where a OS default setting overrides the DHCP config you're pushing would be incredibly painful.
Re:Understanding Daemons by JdeBP on Friday September 04, 2020 @06:57AM (#24373806)
"more and more like children" earlier in this very discussion, perhaps.
Re:Understanding Daemons by crazy_hombre on Friday September 04, 2020 @05:13AM (#24373194)
> I like the init part, i could do without everything else.

Then, do exactly that? None of the components you're complaining about are mandatory (except for journald, but you can easily forward log messages to a regular syslog daemon).

Re:Understanding Daemons by unionpivo on Friday September 04, 2020 @06:22AM (#24373613)
I can only do that on devices/clients I control [1].

Often that's not an option and have to create workarounds on network level (for DNS).

Because I might not have a say on what device is running, but if it can't resolve internal systems its my problem.

DNSSEC is going to make my life even more interesting.

Re:Understanding Daemons by kreetx on Friday September 04, 2020 @08:59AM (#24374498)
I actually thought that systemd is the init part.. Regarding DNS, is the systemd resolver just not advanced/flexible enough? I.e as a desktop user I can't complain about anything, but I don't configure it much either.
Re:Understanding Daemons by fsflover on Friday September 04, 2020 @03:19AM (#24372548)
There were hundreds of comments about it on HN. One typical complain is it's not implemented according to the Unix philosophy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_way#Do_One_Thing_and_Do_I...
Re:Understanding Daemons by JdeBP on Friday September 04, 2020 @07:04AM (#24373843)
There's also a perennial lack of understanding of the computer science.

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23057364

Re:Understanding Daemons by tsimionescu on Friday September 04, 2020 @10:29AM (#24375216)
As a nitpick, I think "cohesion" and "coupling" are terms coming more from software engineering, I'm not sure they are objects of study in the computer science branch of mathematics.
Re:Understanding Daemons by JdeBP on Friday September 04, 2020 @02:13PM (#24377461)
You'll have to take that up with Harlan D. Mills, erstwhile professor of computer science and one of the pioneers in structured programming.
Re:Understanding Daemons by raziel2p on Friday September 04, 2020 @04:46AM (#24373035)
Which isn't even correct because systemd consists of many individual parts that do their thing and are replacable. But because they all share the "systemd-*" naming pattern people think they're the same piece of software.

Would be funny if people made the same complaint about the various GNU core utils because those are all installed from the same package on most (all?) distros.

Re:Understanding Daemons by fsflover on Friday September 04, 2020 @06:16AM (#24373575)
Please show independent working implementations of those "replaceable individual parts". AFAIK people who tried to do it found too many obstacles like undocumented or inconvenient API.
Re:Understanding Daemons by kreetx on Friday September 04, 2020 @03:43AM (#24372681)
Sure, but that's like saying my coffee machine also makes latte and hot chocolate. I guess what I'm asking is: do any of these taste bad, and how? Perhaps the parent had a few of these on his/her mind that could have been listed.
Re:Understanding Daemons by fsflover on Friday September 04, 2020 @03:54AM (#24372744)
Unix philosophy has a reason. It allows to easily replace components and simplifies testing. AFAIK it's not easy to replace various parts of systemd, it's very monolithic and it does too many things.
Re:Understanding Daemons by crazy_hombre on Friday September 04, 2020 @05:20AM (#24373236)
> AFAIK it's not easy to replace various parts of systemd, it's very monolithic and it does too many things.

You can easily replace timesyncd with any NTP daemon. You can easily replace networkd with any other networking manager. You can easily replace timer units with cron. You can easily forward log messages to a syslog daemon. You can easily replace systemd-boot with grub or any other boot manager.

It should be pretty obvious how baseless the monolithic arguments against systemd are.

Re:Understanding Daemons by kreetx on Friday September 04, 2020 @04:55AM (#24373104)
I know the philosophy. What I'm trying to get at is that perhaps the thing that came before was a set of things that didn't quite work together, so now they made something that does.

(And was just wondering if there was any specific thing the original parent wanted to replace.)

Re:Understanding Daemons by kreetx on Friday September 04, 2020 @08:55AM (#24374467)
Did you just search for "unix philosophy" and found some links?

Again, was just interested if you had any specific thing you could point to, but elsewhere in the comments I see now a few concrete issues.