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Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by mabbo on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @12:47PM (#24343735)
This highlights more than ever that whatever customer data your employees have access to, you need to log every single access to it, and have automatic audits- who should be accessing what? What accesses are surprising?

Seems like something one could build a SaaS business around- send them reports that <user> accessed <fields> about <customer ID> on <date>, along with a copy of attributes and roles about each user. Service could offer deep dives, querying, reporting, along with ML or rule-based flagging to say "That seems odd".

If Twitter can't build the infrastructure needed to do that, I can't imagine how few small companies can do it themselves either.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by kitteh on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:45PM (#24344502)
Telcos have this level of monitoring of accounts because employees routinely would abuse this access to find details of exs, family members, friends and celebrities (billing info, call detail records, etc.). The problem was there was no proactive monitoring - it was all reaction based upon complaints that would kick off the investigation. I asked why this wasn't automatic to detect clear abuse and the answer was "do you know how many people we'd have to fire if we went looking for abuse?".
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by mabbo on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @02:14PM (#24344893)
> "do you know how many people we'd have to fire if we went looking for abuse?"

I think they make the mistake of presuming this has to go up to 11 on day 1.

Tell the employees you're going to be proactively auditing. Choose a threshold. Interview and potentially fire those employees going over the threshold. Do this until you're done firing people, then increase the threshold and repeat. You will have to fire people, or threaten to, but employees will get the message that the PII-party is over.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by kitteh on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @03:53PM (#24346253)
The challenge was that depending on the role, the union was involved. When that came into the picture there was a long, dragged out grievance process where someone would have to violate the policy x amount of times in y months before they'd be terminated. It was not unusual from what I've seen for folks to abuse this for years.

To be honest tho - this is the contract that both the company and union agreed to, so bad on the company for being okay and not making this a more serious infraction. I've talked to some of the union stewards about this and they basically said they wanted this data locked down harder. They said it's too easy to access and super temping and wished the company would put more protection around it. Go figure.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by 3pt14159 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @04:49PM (#24346893)
I know for a fact that The Canadian Revenue Agency has this type of system in place and it isn't reactive to a complaint. It's proactive. If you try to pull up, say, Wayne Gretzky's tax information the system is able to detect whether or not you have a likely need for the information. If not, you're temporarily denied access until your access is evaluated by humans that are capable of asking why you need access. "For funsies" is not an acceptable response.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by edoceo on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @08:13PM (#24348633)
Wow, even their revenuers skate to where the puck is going.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @02:05PM (#24344786)
If they're abusing their position they don't deserve to keep their job. The companies complicity makes them party to whatever these staff do. Whether a lawyer can prove that or not depends on the depth of the aggrieveds bank account.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by mc32 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @02:11PM (#24344850)
The same problem existed in patient data prior to HIPAA. It still happens, but the unauthorized disclosures have gone down due to automated trips. It used to be your check in clerk could run any reports on whomever they wanted without giving it a second thought.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by ticmasta on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @03:37PM (#24346039)
So when I worked for the cable company straight out of uni and we would look up famous local people to see what packages they subscribed to, we should have all been fired? I guess technically, but that's pretty draconian. Are you also no mercy, hard on crime, 1-strike and you're out person, or more progressive in that area?
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by Red_Leaves_Flyy on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @01:21AM (#24350208)
You answered your own question. Seems you're having trouble taking responsibility for the fact that you acted unprofessionally by lashing out with presumptive attacks on my beliefs, which are incorrect. The culture of that workplace is a mitigating factor for the lower ranked staff, conversely it is a compounding factor for the senior staff that failed to put an end to it and discipline those involved.

Should you have been fired? Depends on how much you abused your privilege and what you did with that information. Your comparison to 1 strike laws and greater crime is pretty rich given the information you improperly accessed could be used to blackmail others, or whatever. It's important to treat such information with the utmost respect. Your cavalier attitude and inability to accept responsibility in this regard may be very common within the tech industry, but such attitudes are also why there is a growing movement to; take data out of the hands of companies, and to harshly punish companies who fail to protect the data on one hand while vacuuming up as much as possible with the other.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by neolog on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @04:17PM (#24346519)
Would you have done it if you knew you would definitely get caught and be fired immediately?
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by CyberDildonics on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:55PM (#24347580)
You should not have been able to do it in the first place.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by dboreham on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:22PM (#24347230)
> we should have all been fired?

Yes.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by kjs3 on Friday September 04, 2020 @10:51AM (#24375422)
I'm honestly somewhat mystified at the lack of personal ethics where you could justify in your own mind that you shouldn't be fired for this sort of breach of trust. But I shouldn't be I suppose...I've seen all sorts of appalling behavior excused with 'gee, it's not like I killed anyone...'.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by im3w1l on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @02:00AM (#24350419)
This kind of thing has to involve cultural change where people internalize on a deep level that looking celebs up is a big no-no. You have to judge people by contemporary standards, and for this reason I think you do not deserve as much punishment as future offenders.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by Giornito on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:13PM (#24347125)
It has mostly been reactionary because the cost of being proactive and that most of the active work would likely be associated with national security, which is often outside the public eyes.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by paulpan on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:47PM (#24344525)
My thoughts exactly, though it seems the incident happened a few years ago when the mentality of "move fast and break things" mentality was much more acceptable.

I'd be very concerned if there still aren't processes and technical barriers to prevent the majority employees from accessing user data. IP address, phone number, etc. should require top-level authorization to access - not something an engineer or even marketing/sales person can just look up.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by nitrogen on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @12:25AM (#24349966)
a few years ago

Twitter was hacked via social engineering of an employee just last month: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23851275

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by dylan604 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:11PM (#24347117)
>Seems like something one could build a SaaS business around- send them reports that <user> accessed <fields> about <customer ID> on <date>, along with a copy of attributes and roles about each user. Service could offer deep dives, querying, reporting, along with ML or rule-based flagging to say "That seems odd".

Wouldn't that just expose user data to an even wider group of people while doing this reporting?

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by Xavdidtheshadow on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:17PM (#24347175)
If I'm following the suggestion, then it's just logs which keys were accessed:

"employee id 1234 accessed "email, password hash, location, birthday" about customer id 6789 on 2020-09-01"

nothing particularly sensitive in there, but makes it easy to audit and check for abnormalities.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by dylan604 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:39PM (#24347419)
Nothing sensitive about what you just described? Seems like with that info you can start making intelligent answers to security questions or possible rainbow table look ups.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:44PM (#24347473)
It's the column headings, though.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by dylan604 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @05:45PM (#24347484)
Ahhh, I'm a dolt. I read that as variables in your comment rather than that is literally the data that is returned. Thanks for clarifying
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by Xavdidtheshadow on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @07:28PM (#24348321)
Doesn't look like I can edit, but I could have been more clear
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by sneak on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:28PM (#24344281)
I wonder if tokenizing all PII for storage, with a special lookup server accessible only to a small group, would reduce the threat of these kinds of attacks.

Obviously some things like SMS or sending of email need to manipulate this data, but rx/tx of eg sms given a placeholder token could also be similarly siloed, so most technical staff would never have or need access to raw PII like IP, phone, or email.

Unfortunately geolocation for ad targeting and other customization features is still probably going to make a “what country is this user in right now?” possible for most devs/SREs, which is itself a bit of a physical location change traffic leak, but making it near-impossible for most devs or SREs to view untokenized user PII would probably be a huge step in the right direction.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by evgen on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @03:05PM (#24345611)
For quite a long time (and probably still today but I have no idea) there was at least as much monitoring and security infrastructure built around watching and auditing what Facebook employees did to data as there was around what third-parties might be trying to do to Facebook infra and corp networks.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by dathinab on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:03PM (#24343960)
It already exists it part of the process mining+ monitoring box.

This kind of system are already used to both optimize business processes and conformance check then by organizations like banks and hospitals.

Through tools are currently focused mainly on the use case for process optimization and regulation conformance checking less so for irregularity detection but tools like that exists to. I think to remember SAP has some form of self learning/calibrating irregularity detection "service"/tool.

So it's less about creating it then about spending Mony on it and from scratch up analysing your internal thread model.

It's quite expensive, some of this software is sold for higher 5 digit numbers even for "small" use-cases.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by mabbo on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:26PM (#24344250)
> It's quite expensive, some of this software is sold for higher 5 digit numbers even for "small" use-cases.

"Your margin is my opportunity" - Jeff Bezos

A simple version of this could be done cheaply, and not cost much. API to push events, website to host reports, pay-for-use add-ons for alerts, etc.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by tjalfi on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @11:27PM (#24349719)
Part of my job is to support a system that enforces ethical walls[0].

Here are some of the reasons why this niche isn't a good fit for a low margin business:

These products are complex and require extensive customization to be useful. It's common to require consulting when installing or upgrading them.

Third-party integrations are common; the product that I support integrates with at least 3 third-party services.

The service is valuable to these organizations and they are willing to pay fairly high fees for using it. Why leave money on the table?

Support costs are high due to the complexity of the customer's environment.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wall

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by tmpz22 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:34PM (#24344350)
You're misidentifying the real problem which is not in the software itself. The real problem is that data needs to be accessed by marketing, analytics, sales, executive, HR, and other parts of the company all the time. It's a human problem managing the impedance of data access blocks... and guess what at most companies the block is seen as a significant cost far greater then the "cost" of PII violations, leaks, or hacks...

But go ahead and find a random group of 3 ex-googlers with no domain experience to raise ~$2MM and chase it anyways. Then when you burn through the money you can go back to your FANNG job with a nice raise.

Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by toomuchtodo on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:55PM (#24344652)
Bolting tools on to an org doesn't fix its culture.
Re:A Saudi prince's attempt to silence critics on Twitter by kbash9 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @03:36PM (#24346014)
Yes, full role-based access control and audibility is key. This also highlights the need for data masking built into these DB systems. If data is gold, you need vaults to protect it.