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Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Polylactic_acid on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:06PM (#24206467)
Is anyone else feeling feeling tired of these security posts that have scary titles but literally no real world impact?

Ok, maybe you can copy a key from sound but getting a clean recording and then going home and producing a new key and getting it correct is 100000x harder than just sticking 2 metal sticks in the lock and opening it in 15 seconds.

To us these posts might provide some light entertainment but then they get shared around by people who people who don't know better and next thing you know people are installing sound proof booths on the front of doors or telling us locks are insecure because they just found out about this trick.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by smnrchrds on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:10PM (#24206784)
> * Is anyone else feeling feeling tired of these security posts that have scary titles but literally no real world impact?*

Researchers, regardless of the discipline, often work at the edge of what's possible, not what's practical. Decade after decade, we have consumed news about researchers finding ways to cure cancer, immunize against HIV, break encryption with quantum computing, etc. It will be a couple more decades before any of these endeavours come to fruition. Just remember how long researchers have been working on quantum computers and how much longer they need to work to create something even remotely useful.

Science news hints how the world might look like half a century or a century in the future, not next year. For that, you need to read corporate announcements.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by abhayhegde on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @08:46AM (#24209813)
A thoughtful comment. Much of the research carried now is a part of immediate future, only in research field. For example, suppose we develop a way to encode information as states of electron spin. This opens a huge avenues for quantum computing, although only at the level of labs. To bring out a user product onto a market, that is a whole different story and complicated deal of various factors and fields, independent of research. It makes sense it takes decades or even half a century to roll out considerable paradigm shifts.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Polylactic_acid on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:31PM (#24206877)
Thats fair. I just get the vibe that these articles are less about sharing research and more about drumming up fear to get more eyes on their post/organisation.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by waheoo on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:50PM (#24206972)
News outlets using shock value for clicks is surprising to you?
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by coldtea on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:03AM (#24207043)
Only things surprising to you are worth ourtage/protesting/changing?
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by waheoo on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:01PM (#24212724)
You're outraged about something you're "tired of"?

You mince your words a lot mate.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by ashtonkem on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:04PM (#24206751)
Most American locks just aren’t that secure; even I can pick a Masterlock #3 in a few minutes, and I’m a total novice at lock picking. A little bit of practice and there’s a good chance you could pick most front doors in a few minutes.

The simple reality is that if you’re going to get robbed, chances are the robber is going to use a pry bar to ruin the door jam or break your window. Locks are about keeping honest citizens honest.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by jjeaff on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:16PM (#24206815)
>locks are about keeping honest citizens honest

I've heard that, and I get it, but I don't think that's actually it. Locks are about making it too inconvenient or risky to be worth stealing or breaking into. I guess some people might just all the sudden steal something if given the chance but would never do so otherwise, but usually, it's people who are already willing to steal if the difficulty and stakes are low enough.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by kens on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:08AM (#24207633)
I agree that "locks keep honest people honest" is a nice but bogus sentiment. Bike locks are a clear counterexample. While a cheap cable lock will keep honest people honest, your bike will soon get stolen. A Kryptonite-style lock is kind of the minimum. But even those need constant upgrades as bad guys figure out how to pick them or freeze them with canned air. Thus, the goal of a lock is to make it not worth the effort for a thief, not to keep honest people honest.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by SAI_Peregrinus on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:31AM (#24210740)
That and to provide evidence of forcible entry for insurance companies to pay out. It's easier to cut the lock off than to learn to pick most locks, so the victim can easily prove the theft.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by retsibsi on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:57AM (#24208183)
I don't know if this is actually true, but I've heard that it's partly about taking away plausible deniability (for people caught on another person's property). If you had to break something/pick a lock/climb through a window, it's hard to argue that you had no malicious intent and were merely trying to pay a visit, or that it was dark and you were a little bit drunk and you opened your neighbour's front door by mistake.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by salawat on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:07AM (#24209124)
That reminds me of the time growing up that we actually had someone astonishingly drunk who ended up falling asleep in our unlocked minivan because he completely screwed up navigating home and apparently we had the same type of van he did. Mom was not at all amused at the time, but the more I think about the implementation of car locks (most share key cuts), the more I find the entire thing somewhat amusing in hindsight.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by dec0dedab0de on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:50PM (#24206974)
I think the saying "locks keep honest people out" means that locks are there to keep out the overzealous girlscout selling cookies, that annoying friend who comes over when you dont text him back, and your neighbor that heard a noise and wants to make sure everything is ok.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Polylactic_acid on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:08AM (#24207315)
It also deters some dishonest people. A while ago my suburb was hit by a drug addict who moved in and would steal change/ipods from unlocked cars and tools from unlocked sheds. He never touched anything that was locked because the extra risk and effort wasn't worth it.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by SAI_Peregrinus on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:29AM (#24210718)
> Locks are about keeping honest citizens honest.

No, locks are about making forcible entry easier than covert entry, so that your insurance company pays out. The primary function of the lock is tamper evidence. The secondary function is deterrence (easier to get into an unlocked place than a locked one). Actually preventing entry isn't the point for any but the strongest locks, and even then they only serve to delay entry.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by ric2b on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:08PM (#24229003)
I don't think most people buy locks for that reason, they buy them because they think the lock is secure enough so that only serious criminals will do anything, and then they hope those criminals don't show up.

Besides, a lot of locks are so easy to pick that you might as well do it instead of making a lot of noise forcing it open.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by amock on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:19PM (#24206827)
Are non-American locks better? Why would American locks be worse?
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by donw on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:46AM (#24207198)
Dimple locks are exceedingly common here in Japan, and German padlocks (Abus, etc.) are generally considered what you want to buy if you're actually trying to secure something.

The thing is, those locks are more expensive to produce, both in terms of metallurgy and skilled labor. Germany has done a solid job of ensuring that it retains local experience in both areas, through a combination of tariffs, a robust skilled-trade education system, and consumer preference for domestic goods.

American consumers, on the other hand, tend to be very price-sensitive, and Master locks are cheap.

That's not to say that there aren't some rock-solid American locks, but Germany and Japan tend to be the leaders here (and for the same reason)

If you're keen to learn more about locks and security, I suggest having a look at LockPickingLawyer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6rby98W8JigLoZOh6FQ

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by rockinghigh on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:53PM (#24206993)
At least in France, dimple locks (keys have holes instead of teeth) are more common and feel more secure, even though they can still be lockpicked.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Polylactic_acid on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:21AM (#24207119)
Most of the dimple locks I have seen can be opened with just a rake and 2 seconds time.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Uberphallus on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @04:10AM (#24208256)
Most dimple locks in Europe won't open by raking because they also carry spools.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Tuna-Fish on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @03:47AM (#24208130)
Most countries/regions tend to "standardize" almost all common locks to one type, which all the local locksmiths learn to work with and sell, and which all the people in that area learn to operate. The actual level of security or cost of the lock type seems to be insignificant, it's all just network effects.

The most common locks in America are all of the pin-tumbler type, which essentially provides "security theater"-level protection. They are very easy to pick with very little skill or specialized tools required, and most of them can be even be bumped in 5 seconds. [1] When people got concerned about the security of pin-tumbler locks, American lock manufacturers generally did not move to more secure lock types (or, if some did, they were probably outcompeted by other companies), they just added various extra "security features" on top of the fundamentally broken mechanism. Some of those "security features" are able to stop a curious 12-year old who spent 4 hours learning lockpicking on youtube, none of them will actually do much to deter a professional. On the positive side, pin-tumbler locks are really cheap and easy to use.

My native Finland has mostly standardized on Abloy's (now part of Assa Abloy) disc-detainer style locks. [2] They are somewhat more expensive than pin-tumbler style locks, but are dramatically more secure. This is because they typically have many orders of magnitude larger key spaces, and are designed in such a way that it is very hard to get feedback by manipulating the lock. They, too, can be picked, but this generally requires hard-to-acquire specialized tools, a very high skill level and a lot more time than weaker locks. They are hard enough to pick that if you lock yourself out, and don't have the coding of the lock stored somewhere, you basically cannot hire a locksmith to pick the lock for you -- you just have to break into your house some other way.

Why have Abloy locks not been a runaway success in America, replacing all the insecure locks? It turns out that the security of a lock really does not matter. Almost all American home locks are comically weak, yet almost no criminals ever pick or bump locks. So the additional security doesn't actually buy you much, if anything. However, Abloy locks have real disadvantages. For one, they require much more fine machining, which makes them more expensive. On top of that, they are somewhat more complex to use, as the locks have no internal springs (which is part of what makes them secure), so the lock has some persistent state or "memory". If the lock has last been normally locked or unlocked, you can just insert the key, turn, and pull it out. However, if I insert the key fully, and then extract it slightly, turn a little, and then fully pull it out, you can only insert the key up to that same point, and you then have to turn it straight before you can insert it further. If I do this individually to every disc with different rotations, it's going to take you a while. This can happen on it's own for, say, a padlock on a container that jostles as it's being transported. Everyone in Finland learns how to open a scrambled Abloy lock with the key right about at the time they get their first key, and most of us probably don't actually think of this as a skill, but do you want to try selling these locks to people who were not just taught how this works by their parents?

So why did Finland standardize on such an expensive, idiosynchratic lock type? It was invented by a Finnish company, their manufacture was domestic, and there were periods when Finland was really starved for foreign currency. It's all network effects from there.

But yeah, every now and then there is a news story or a paper of how you can open an American door lock by 3d-printing a key or by sound or by whatever exotic method. These news are always stupid because you can already open the lock by gently tapping it, so why waste your time with the tech?

[1]: A video of an 11-year-old kid at defcon learning to bump a lock after a few minutes of teaching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5fLgxqWvJQ

[2]: http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/Disc-detainer

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Uberphallus on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @04:26AM (#24208323)
Came here to praise disc detainer locks.

It's the only major type of lock I haven't been able to pick within a reasonable timeframe.

Normally once you learn how to pick a certain model of lock, another lock of the same model will fall within 10 min, broadly speaking, and most cheap locks in just seconds.

Disc detainer lock's design just prevents you from freely accessing each of the discs except with specialized tools, and there's no feedback from any spring, so there's no "touch" or "feeling" you can learn.

That leaves to brute force all "combinations" from the innermost to the outermost disc as the only way to pick it.

In a 8 disc, 4 "angle" lock like the one I have to practice, that means 4096 combinations. With a very optimistic 1 sec per combination, on average you need 34 minutes per lock.

At that point it's less suspicious to use a drill or an angle grinder to open what you want to open.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by hipokampa on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @07:02AM (#24209088)
You would have to be very unlucky to take 34 minutes[1]. After mere 75 tries (seconds) the chances are >50%.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by speakeron on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @08:32AM (#24209720)
The birthday problem isn't applicable here, because you're trying to match a specific combination rather than looking for any matching pair. So the average number of attempts needed is indeed 4096/2.

This is the same as the difference between a preimage (specific input) attack and a collision (any pair of inputs) attack on a hash algorithm[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimage_attack

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by vonmoltke on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:08AM (#24210494)
> The most common locks in America are all of the pin-tumbler type, which essentially provides "security theater"-level protection. They are very easy to pick with very little skill or specialized tools required, and most of them can be even be bumped in 5 seconds.

A well-designed pin-and-tumbler deadbolt is not easy to pick: https://www.frontrangelocksmith.com/blog/the-best-lock-for-y...

Bumping is a different story.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by timonoko on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @09:08AM (#24209963)
Original Abloy was incredibly easy to pick. I remember seeing weird-looking generic Abloy-opener in 1957 when a lock-smith opened our door in about 5 seconds. Then Abloy changed the tensioning disk from front to back. And nowadays the tensioning disk is some random disk. But still no problem to Lock-Picking Lawyer or some other Youtube star.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by lawl on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:13AM (#24207664)
> going home and producing a new key and getting it correct is 100000x harder

Once you get the bitting and know what key it is, this is really not hard at all, provided you have the right tools. There's handheld tools for this [0] stuff, so you can do this pretty quickly in a parking lot, in theory.

Yes, these tools are relatively expensive and you probably don't need to worry about your bike getting stolen that way. Probably also not about someone breaking into your home like this, they'll just smash a window or something.

But if the attack described here gets to the point where you have an app that outputs the bitting code then I believe this is a legitimate attack that should worry (some) companies. This could let you go from access to a building with a 'visitor' badge to getting easy permanent access.

[0] https://www.lockpicks.com/pak-a-punch-for-schlage.html

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Tuna-Fish on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:50AM (#24207853)
If you care about security, for starters you don't use pin-tumbler locks. They are pretty much useless as far as stopping a determined attacker is concerned.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by hughw on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:46PM (#24206664)
I feel sure this technology will have a real world impact. Maybe not on your front door, but many valuable secrets and resources lie behind physical locks. As with 0-days, the owners of the technology (say a three-letter agency) may not want to use it so widely they raise awareness.

With more research the designers can certainly overcome the problems other commenters have posted here regarding noise, or more challenging lock design. Lock makers could build effective countermeasures. But there are so many locks that never will be upgraded.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by imtringued on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @05:17AM (#24208582)
Yeah, basically all pin based locks suffer from the same problem. Once you tension the cylinder the pins don't reset anymore so just poking all pins to the correct height will open the lock. Of course there are locks with varying difficulty but the most effective locks mostly involve making it hard to put conventional lock picking tools into them.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by brudgers on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:43PM (#24206928)
It's not just that picking a lock is going to be simpler. It's that to use the audio exploit a person needs to know enough about locks to select the correct blank. And setting up a camera to take a picture of the key is likely to be at least as easy as setting up audio recording equipment.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by efficax on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:18PM (#24206528)
It seems like the risk on this one is pretty high, assuming the SpiKey software is available. Say you have a job where you need to be let in and out of a locked area by someone who is trusted with a key. The only thing you need now is a smartphone and to be standing not too far from the person putting the key in the lock and you have access!
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Polylactic_acid on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:26PM (#24206574)
If the area is so high secure that this is a real threat then you should be using nfc tokens and a fingerprint/code scanner. The chance that someone will steal your token and clone your fingerprint before you notice and deactivate the token is nonexistant. And if all that is still not enough security then you need to combine that with a security guard at the door.

Key and lock security is for low security situations where it just has to be more secure than the window.

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by rhacker on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:29PM (#24206586)
Even the blog article at the bottom made the more insightful point that just a picture of a key is enough to make a duplicate. It seems a much easier thing to do considering you just need a microcamera pointing sideways at the lock entry.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by brudgers on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:50PM (#24206973)
If you have a smartphone, you can just take a picture of the key.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by pishpash on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:35PM (#24206607)
"If a key is inserted at a nonconstant speed, the analysis can be ruined, but the software can compensate for small speed variations."

(That and noise.) Can we say academic project?

Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by hughw on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:53PM (#24206695)
This paper demonstrates the principle. You start with the easier cases, then introduce the complexities. You don't have to wait until you've licked every problem to publish. And when you eventually do solve the problem in the presence of noise and varying insertion speed, you may not publish.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by efficax on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:29PM (#24206584)
Also, lock picking often damages the lock and is a lot slower than people are giving credit here. This gets you in and out in short order
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by JackeJR on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:34PM (#24206601)
In which case you need to check out the lockpickinglawyer. Sure, not everyone has that level of skill but it is conceivable to self learn and be competent to a point where lock picking is practical.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Polylactic_acid on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:37PM (#24206621)
That guy picks locks faster than I can find the correct key on a ring.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Xylakant on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:47AM (#24207844)
However, picking a lock still requires a short period of being unobserved. This may not be the case in for example an office building. Taking out a key and unlocking the door is an absolutely normal act and few people would notice. It even adds an air of legitimacy - that person has a key, they’re likely allowed in there.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by ggggtez on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @10:21PM (#24206546)
Or you could just bring some lock picks, and then you don't even need someone with the original key.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by Lammy on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:20AM (#24207396)
No, but I am tired of every security/surveillance post I see on HN having a glut on comments downplaying the severity or real-world applicability.
Re:Listen to Your Key: Towards Acoustics-based Physical Key ... by nautilus12 on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:03PM (#24206742)
"Security researches have found they can guess your password from analyzing how frequently you blink."