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Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by walterbell on Friday August 14, 2020 @12:05PM (#24159689)
Thunderbird is funded by users. There is currently no way to donate directly to Firefox separately of Mozilla general fund.

Can initial steps be taken to financially firewall Firefox development from the rest of Mozilla, as Thunderbird has done successfully? Start by moving the web standards advocacy brain trust to the separate org. Ask users to donate/subscribe. Begin the transition now, don't wait for the next negotiation with Alphabet/Google.

As donations grow, more Firefox teams can move to the independent legal org.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by dleslie on Friday August 14, 2020 @12:59PM (#24160324)
> Can initial steps be taken to financially firewall Firefox development from the rest of Mozilla, as Thunderbird has done successfully?

It would have to be a fork with user support. Mozilla doesn't have much incentive to distance itself from its core product and even less incentive to provide a means by which their users can dictate what policies and products their financial support is for.

Mozilla has too many individuals in its organization, including its executive, who are not so closely tied to Firefox for this idea to succeed.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by walterbell on Friday August 14, 2020 @05:22PM (#24163439)
In some organizations, 25% layoffs are not considered a sign of success. If Mozilla isn't tied to Firefox, yet has the ability to siphon from Firefox success or increase existential risk due to debatable roadmaps, new side effects of this principal-agent gap may appear.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by prepend on Friday August 14, 2020 @07:07PM (#24164324)
I would definitely donate to a Gozilla fork.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by chrisseaton on Friday August 14, 2020 @07:24PM (#24164456)
I don’t think Gozilla is anything to do with Mozilla is it?
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by oblio on Friday August 14, 2020 @07:41PM (#24164555)
> The project took its name, "Mozilla", after the original code name of the Netscape Navigator browser — a portmanteau of "Mosaic and Godzilla".
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by chrisseaton on Friday August 14, 2020 @07:51PM (#24164609)
Yeah I know that... but what does this have to do with Gozilla? I don’t think Gozilla has ever been a Mozilla or Netscape product. The names are similar but they’re unrelated.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by aesh2Xa1 on Friday August 14, 2020 @08:04PM (#24164695)
The only relationship between "Godzilla" and "Mozilla" is that portmanteau.

I think the OP's sentiment was that the name "Godzilla," is awesome and it would elate him to donate for the name alone.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by chrisseaton on Friday August 14, 2020 @08:07PM (#24164710)
I think you’re possibly misreading - they said ‘Gozilla’ not ‘Godzilla’.

Gozilla is proprietary networking software, nothing to do with Mozilla. So Mozilla can’t fork Gozilla.

Godzilla is a monster character and where Mozilla gets its name.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by thesuperbigfrog on Friday August 14, 2020 @10:35PM (#24165401)
Well, Mozilla did use a red tyrannosaurus rex logo for a while:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_(mascot)#/media/File:M...

I am not sure if that qualifies as an aspiration to be a predator.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by input_sh on Friday August 14, 2020 @02:16PM (#24161328)
> Can initial steps be taken to financially firewall Firefox development from the rest of Mozilla, as Thunderbird has done successfully? Start by moving the web standards advocacy brain trust to the separate org.

That's exactly how it's done for the past 15 years.

Mozilla Corporation is in charge of Firefox development. Mozilla Foundation is in charge of advocacy. Mozilla Corporation is fully owned by the Mozilla Foundation.

Thunderbird development is handled by a different subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation called MZLA Technologies Corporation.

Yes, their naming mechanism is awful.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by notatoad on Friday August 14, 2020 @06:39PM (#24164135)
>Mozilla Corporation is in charge of Firefox development. Mozilla Foundation is in charge of advocacy. Mozilla Corporation is fully owned by the Mozilla Foundation.

but the mozilla layoffs yesterday impacted both MDN and firefox. If the corp vs foundation is a distinction without a difference, why bother bringing it up?

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by dleslie on Friday August 14, 2020 @02:47PM (#24161712)
Mozilla Corp does a lot more than Firefox development. All software development at Mozilla is under the purview of MozCorp.

It's also wholly under the oversight of Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Foundation has the ability to direct MozCorp to support its non-software development endeavours. Ie, by using Firefox push notifications to spread messages to users.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by calcifer on Friday August 14, 2020 @02:11PM (#24161269)
I donate to Mozilla every year. The changes you suggest would it make it less likely for me to continue, because I support Mozilla's overall mission of being a force for good, which is so rare in the technology world. Firefox is a part of that but Mozilla as a whole is a lot more important to me.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by dleslie on Friday August 14, 2020 @02:48PM (#24161733)
You could still donate to the Mozilla Foundation and not the hypothetical Firefox charity.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by nvr219 on Friday August 14, 2020 @12:51PM (#24160218)
I use Firefox and Thunderbird all day, every day, and Thunderbird definitely feels like it's funded by users whereas Firefox feels like it is funded by an actual company lol. So.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by walterbell on Friday August 14, 2020 @12:55PM (#24160273)
In 2020, desktop email clients are also a smaller market by several orders of magnitude.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by trynewideas on Friday August 14, 2020 @09:45PM (#24165206)
All the more reason to fund and support browser development, since it includes their mobile products?
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by notyourwork on Friday August 14, 2020 @01:19PM (#24160578)
For end users probably, for enterprise I doubt it.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by freehunter on Friday August 14, 2020 @01:46PM (#24160899)
But enterprise is going to default something with an enterprise license and support agreement (like Outlook). You might have some users who prefer Thunderbird but they’re going to be a much smaller audience.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by giancarlostoro on Friday August 14, 2020 @02:17PM (#24161345)
Not always, we pay for a plugin for Thunderbird (ExQuilzilla) though. We're primarily working on Linux systems so it makes no sense to even have Outlook or Windows in our office. We don't make up a large demographic of our company (which is in the F500 range), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's other places that do the same.

It's a shame Firefox doesn't sell a developer ready IDE, I'd subscribe to that myself if it means better MDN and that the dev tools team is better funded, and Firefox in addition to other donations from elsewhere, throw in a VPN subscription to sweeten it for most people. I'm ready to pay for anything that funds Firefox directly.

I've even seen some in QA who do have Windows just installing Thunderbird.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by cglong on Friday August 14, 2020 @09:00PM (#24165034)
You could always use Outlook Web App (even installing it as a PWA if desired); it's actually really polished.

Disclaimer: Microsoft employee unaffiliated with Outlook/Exchange :)

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by notyourwork on Friday August 14, 2020 @03:27PM (#24162209)
We use exchange, Apple Mail and Thunderbird can both be used. There are limitations but there are options beyond the status quo in enterprise. Its a protocol.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by zerkten on Saturday August 15, 2020 @05:43PM (#24172686)
People don't just do email in business settings. The proposition with Exchange was that you had email and calendaring together. This combination likely predates Exchange, but it was the juggernaut that took over big companies.

Now you have GSuite and others copying that approach. In terms of clients, Outlook is probably a bigger Gmail client than Thunderbird within the enterprise due to the fact that business people in many places are only familiar with it. Yes, the protocols are supported in other clients, but going with something else is a in practice a peculiarity. I don't think that is healthy, but it's what's happening out there and impacting the potential of any other client.

In the early days, Phoenix knew what it was about and had a team driving a really focused product experience for what would become Firefox. This was a very important part of why Firefox had the impact it had.

Thunderbird always felt like a "me too" product focusing on email. In 2002, the set of criteria for global success (an integrated email and calendar experience) was already well defined. The product never got any razor sharp focus and an opportunity was squandered. It's hard to see how Thunderbird can ever achieve what it might have done.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by stjohnswarts on Friday August 14, 2020 @08:29PM (#24164836)
Do you know of a single enterprise of any size (say > 30 employees) is using thunderbird as their default internal email client?
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by jasonjayr on Friday August 14, 2020 @09:28PM (#24165163)
Our org of 50ish is.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by et_alt on Friday August 14, 2020 @11:50PM (#24165759)
We are (100ish employees, SW development, Finland).
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by Macha on Friday August 14, 2020 @08:32PM (#24164860)
OWA and G Suite gmail are pretty widespread.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by znpy on Saturday August 15, 2020 @03:45PM (#24171740)
The development team might all agree to leave the company en masse, foto Firefox and start working on the Firefox fork.

In six months to one year the fork will be in advantage over the original Firefox, and the new management will be able to focus on Firefox fork development.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by dec0dedab0de on Friday August 14, 2020 @06:51PM (#24164211)
At this point I kind of wish Firefox would get moved to the Apache foundation.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Friday August 14, 2020 @07:22PM (#24164434)
Why is Google even interested in Firefox users?

Presumably many/most of those users are not happy with Google/Chrome/advertising/tracking.

If there is some sort of "threat" to Google from Mozilla, this is like Google funding antitrust think tanks. It is difficult to take Mozilla, the organisation not necessarily the work product, seriously.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/us/politics/eric-schmidt-...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/24/technology/global-antitru...

Neither the (NetBSD) OS nor the GCC compiler I am using, not to mention myriad other programs, needs to be supported by advertising. What makes the "web browser" different?

As the comments on the Register article point out, it seems $400 million/year is how much money it takes to develop/maintain a web browser.

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2020/08/14/mozilla_...

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by kmeisthax on Saturday August 15, 2020 @12:01AM (#24165810)
Default settings are fairly lucrative - the reason why Bing and Edge are somehow viable search engines and browsers is purely because Microsoft ships them as default on Windows. Depending on who you ask, Firefox is either the same or double the browser marketshare of Edge, so that default search setting is still lucrative, if only so that Bing, Yahoo, or DuckDuckGo don't get any of that default search traffic.

Also, while lots of people gripe about Google adtech, they aren't angry about it enough to switch search engines. The company still has the best search in the business, specifically because they have a detailed profile on you. Furthermore, they're still moderately trustworthy by tech company standards. At least for me, I'd rather trust Google or Microsoft than, say, Facebook. My biggest concern with any new Google service is less "will I lose control of my data" and more "will this service stay live for longer than a year or two".

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by twblalock on Friday August 14, 2020 @10:17PM (#24165330)
> Presumably many/most of those users are not happy with Google/Chrome/advertising/tracking.

I wouldn't bet on that. A lot of non-tech-savvy people use Firefox because it was recommended by their nerdy friends.

If funding Mozilla resulted in no return, Google would have realized it by now. They have been doing it for quite a long time.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by jhardy54 on Friday August 14, 2020 @10:27PM (#24165371)
> If funding Mozilla resulted in no return, Google would have realized it by now. They have been doing it for quite a long time.

Conspiracy theory: the return on investment is that the active development of Firefox defends Google against anti-trust accusations.

Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by 20after4 on Saturday August 15, 2020 @01:16AM (#24166159)
Is it really a conspiracy theory? It's almost certainly a significant portion of the equation.
Re:Mozilla signs fresh Google search deal by kolbe on Friday August 14, 2020 @10:36PM (#24165414)
You are not alone in this conspiracy theory. A significant portion of Google’s business right now is to fend of anti-trust accusations.