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Re:Thank You MDN by FooBarWidget on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:29AM (#24140208)
It is a lot of money in absolute terms, for sure. But why should a CEO accept “a lot of money”, if elsewhere they can get 5x as much? All this moralizing doesn’t help. You can call people greedy as much as you want, but you have to pay market rate or you can’t find a CEO at all. People have no obligation to accept a lower than market rate salary, they have hard power leverage in negotiations in the sense that they can easily walk away from deals where you offer such a “low” salary.
Re:Thank You MDN by stu2b50 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:42AM (#24140281)
It's not moral grandstanding. I don't think the exec team earns their keep. It would be one thing if they were leading a growing non profit (that owns a for profit), but rather they're leading a quickly declining ship, all while their own salaries increase over time while they do a shitty job.

The ceo of MSF, who imo does a great job, is paid 120k a year.

Brian Chesky, AirBNB ceo, is paid $0 right now, because at least he can recognize how tone deaf talking about your companies financial struggles is whole you're still taking full comp.

Re:Thank You MDN by true_religion on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:49AM (#24140621)
AirBNB isn't even a public company yet.

Brian Chesky is not merely the CEO of AirBnB, he is also the cofounder with a networth of 4.1 billion dollars.

It is one thing for a literal billionaire, who owns the company to undergo 'hardship' in order to save the company they built over the past 10+ years.

It is a whole other thing for a mere employee to sacrifice their salary during a company downturn. To do so is an act of pure charity---which while it may be inline with ethos of a non-profit worker, isn't something that we as total 3rd parties should expect.

Mitchell Baker is just an "employee", despite her long years of service. She was even fired from Netscape during a round of layoffs, and served as a mere volunteer for years.

Re:Thank You MDN by fauigerzigerk on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:01AM (#24141023)
What I would like to know is how much of Mozilla's executive pay is linked to performance and how that performance is measured.

I don't think many would complain about their salaries if what they did actually worked. But Mozilla is being run into the ground before our eyes.

If the availability of people with a non-profit ethos affects competitive pay for non-profits, then that should be taken into a account.

Maybe such a person exists to lead Mozilla. But the primary goal should be to find someone who can turn the organisation around. I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that current management can do it.

Re:Thank You MDN by sam_goody on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:58PM (#24149952)
I really think Brendan Eich would have done an excellent job had he been given a chance.

After all, as much as there are complaints about Brave, he managed to make a legitimately well known contender from scratch in a world that already has seen many other browser attempts go nowhere (and of course, he in some form created and grew Firefox).

Of course, "cancel culture" means you have to throw out someone from being CEO, even if that means the whole internet will suffer greatly, because he had a different opinion than whatever was woke.

Which is a shame, because the net loss to everyone is much much much greater than the $1000 dollars he gave as a donation, even if it is acceptable to destroy someone's life because they have a opinion that disagrees with yours.

Re:Thank You MDN by true_religion on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:23PM (#24150303)
What, Brendan Eich, did was comparable to opposing the fair housing act in 1966. At the time, he was a member of the majority vote, fighting to continue oppressing a minority group. While, he no doubt would find support, since he is part of the status quo, it’s still reasonable to protest his actions.

I don’t think his life was destroyed. He remained a multimillionaire, and immediately founded another competing company. The people whose lives were destroyed were the millions who didn’t have basic marriage rights for decades, and who were systematically humiliated merely for openly being in love.

Re:Thank You MDN by afiori on Friday August 14, 2020 @01:53AM (#24154185)
Voting for and supporting the wrong side is part of the democratic process.

As far as we know Eich was never biased or prejudiced on on that topic as work, his co-workers in that minority never even realized that he held such political opinions, and there is no reason to think he thought lesser of them. He simply wished for the laws not to change.

Re:Thank You MDN by camgunz on Friday August 14, 2020 @02:42PM (#24161656)
Hate, prejudice, and discrimination are not valid political views. Slavery was once a political issue, and your comment would fit right in with that era also.
Re:Thank You MDN by afiori on Saturday August 15, 2020 @03:58AM (#24166929)
> Hate, prejudice, and discrimination are not valid political views.

My point is that there is no indication that hate and prejudice where ever part of Eich's views.

> your comment would fit right in with that era also.

I agree, in that era my comment would have supported people campaigning against slavery in racist states.

Re:Thank You MDN by camgunz on Saturday August 15, 2020 @10:03AM (#24168928)
> My point is that there is no indication that hate and prejudice where ever part of Eich's views.

Can you explain to me how donating in support of Prop 8 (which would have banned gay marriage) isn't homophobic (and thus hateful, prejudicial, and discriminatory)? Can you explain it in such a way as it would make sense for LGBTQ people but not, say, people of color?

> I agree, in that era my comment would have supported people campaigning against slavery in racist states.

This isn't a good faith response. Being pro-slavery was never a valid political position. It was simply hateful and cruel. We cannot accept stances like this as civil discourse. Any debate over "well, does group of humans X get the same rights as group of humans Y" is done. The answer is always yes.

Re:Thank You MDN by afiori on Saturday August 15, 2020 @10:52AM (#24169294)
I am saying that we are conflating some terms. I agree with you that it is discriminatory to bar non-hetero couples from marriage. Given that there is no basis to conflate the intent to be hateful and prejudicial.

Based on the very little information we have this is a case of someone having wrong opinions but not being an actual danger to anyone.

> Can you explain it in such a way as it would make sense for LGBTQ people but not, say, people of color?

no, because I disagree with him and I don't really know of a good reasoning for it. (The only non-contradictory one (a low bar) being that the federal government should not be allowed to decide who can and cannot marry)

Regarding slavery it was a good faith response, also it was tongue-in-cheek response.

> Being pro-slavery was never a valid political position.

It was, it also no longer is, with progress we improve what is a valid position and what is not. Once upon a time in many places abolishing slavery was not a valid political position.

Ultimately these are moral decision that each of us needs to take responsibility for.

Re:Thank You MDN by fulafel on Saturday August 15, 2020 @10:14AM (#24169003)
Do you mean they are not nice political views or tjat they don't fit in the category? Political thought generally has top level values and then more detailed plans drawing from the top level ideas. Discrimination and hate are examples of these high level political values.
Re:Thank You MDN by rini17 on Saturday August 15, 2020 @03:59AM (#24166938)
Cancel culture is a kind of discrimination, too.
Re:Thank You MDN by camgunz on Saturday August 15, 2020 @10:09AM (#24168967)
It does seem that way at first, but (stipulating that it's a thing) cancel culture is based on someone's actions. Discrimination is based on someone's attributes that they cannot change, that are fundamental to who they are. This is why deplatforming someone who's being a racist (or a cop, or a Democrat) is not the same as deplatforming someone because they're LGBTQ.

You can go a little further with this into ascribed vs. achieved status [1][2]. I'm not saying achieved status discrimination is good or OK, nor am I saying it isn't. But it's not the same as ascribed status discrimination.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascribed_status

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achieved_status

Re:Thank You MDN by rini17 on Saturday August 15, 2020 @03:31PM (#24171603)
So you argument "cancel culture is based on someone's actions" and give not some action examples but unrelated achieved status - being a cop or a Democrat?

This stinks and the result is the Brandon Eich and Leni Riefenstahl who did not actually discriminate anyone are given same treatment as other people who were directly responsible for discrimination or genocide.

Re:Thank You MDN by kybernetikos on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:28AM (#24140838)
This is true, but on the other hand the justification for this compensation is that she is able to get much more elsewhere, so asking her to take less is a sacrifice. If that is true, then maybe she should go elsewhere rather than make the sacrifice. If it isn't true then maybe she is overpaid at present.

Just because accepting the sacrifice might not make sense for the current ceo and family doesn't mean that asking for it doesn't make sense for mozilla.

Re:Thank You MDN by true_religion on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:10AM (#24141056)
That’s just asking for Mozilla to fire her because the company did so poorly that other employees were laid off.

I don’t really understand why we should do that... we aren’t stockholders in Mozilla, nor are we customers of them, or even employees. Why should we demand that anyone is fired?

Re:Thank You MDN by feanaro on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:58AM (#24141287)
Are we forgetting that Mozilla was a non-profit and that the Corporation was spun off relatively recently to allegedly better support the non-profit's Foundation's mission? In the sense of that mission, all those interested in a decentralized, open web are stakeholders.

If Mozilla is turning around to be a simple, ordinary business, that is quite the shark jump and will in turn lead to a large loss in advocacy. I have no interest in supporting a company just looking to make a quick buck if I'm not compensated.

Re:Thank You MDN by notyourday on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:06AM (#24142912)
This is a rather typical structure of the non-profit world.

Mozilla Corporation is a sub of Mozilla Foundation. Mozilla Foundation controls Mozilla Corporation shares. Mozilla Foundation should based on the bylaws of Mozilla Corporation either have the board fire the C suite or replace the board of the Mozilla Corporation with those that will fire the C suite.

Mozilla Foundation is not doing that because it is not interested in changes. Running a large non-profit is a low effort, low risk, super lucrative job. The only way to affect Mozilla Corporation and Mozilla Foundation is for donors refuse to donate for Mozilla Foundation until it addresses the governance issues.

Re:Thank You MDN by phonon on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:30PM (#24148490)
>The only way to affect Mozilla Corporation and Mozilla Foundation is for donors refuse to donate for Mozilla Foundation until it addresses the governance issues.

Un(?)fortunately, donations to the Mozilla Foundation are only a few million dollars a year--mostly because they don't do anything particularly interesting. (Seriously--look at https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/ )

Re:Thank You MDN by Lev1a on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:10AM (#24141355)
Replacing the leadership of a failing company instead of firing the normal employees who had and have no influence on the decisions driving the companies would actually be a really good idea.

Instead they fired a whole bunch of people to better their finances in the short-term while damning the company in the long-term.

CEO what's-her-face and the other C-level parasites most likely are only trying to press as much money as they can from the company before either the company is completely run into the ground or they're fired.

And fired they should be.

WITHOUT golden parachutes.

Re:Thank You MDN by kybernetikos on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:15AM (#24142544)
Even though I (from my position of very little knowledge) have doubts that the current executive team are providing the right kind of value for a company in Mozilla's position, 'parasites' is strong language for a bunch of people who I'm sure are genuinely just trying to do a good job in a difficult suituation.
Re:Thank You MDN by mcguire on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:02PM (#24146973)
If they were capable of doing a good job, would the situation be difficult?
Re:Thank You MDN by saagarjha on Friday August 14, 2020 @01:17AM (#24153894)
Possibly? Doing the best you can doesn't necessarily mean you'll have an easy time as money rolls in.
Re:Thank You MDN by mgkimsal on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:59PM (#24145505)
> we aren’t stockholders in Mozilla, nor are we customers of them, or even employees. Why should we demand that anyone is fired?

We are their revenue stream.

We are the users, and we are the ones that continue to evangelize Mozilla and Firefox, and we provide support to people looking to make the switch. without us as users of their software and services, where would they be?

Re:Thank You MDN by nandhinianand on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:28AM (#24143105)
Ah.. I don't know how much of a demand it is, but Mozilla being a non-profit and such a big presence in the Open source browser space, I think we all have the right to criticize and even start forks of it if we can afford the time.
Re:Thank You MDN by CobrastanJorji on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:02AM (#24140703)
Well sure, he owns a 15% share of a company whose current market cap is somewhere around $50 billion. IF, as CEO, he can raise the value of AirBNB by 1%, that's equivalent to a $75 million per year salary.
Re:Thank You MDN by nandhinianand on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:26AM (#24143078)
By MSF do you mean medicine sans frontiers(https://www.msf.org/) ??
Re:Thank You MDN by phonon on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:32PM (#24148557)
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/sites/default/files/20... page 7.

$63,504 a year for a $400 million organization.

Re:Thank You MDN by bjo590 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:19AM (#24143026)
> The ceo of MSF, who imo does a great job, is paid 120k a year.

I know a few organizations that might fall under that abbreviation. Can you be more specific?

Re:Thank You MDN by phonon on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:32PM (#24148550)
https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/sites/default/files/20... page 7.

$63,504 a year for a $400 million organization.

Re:Thank You MDN by rvense on Thursday August 13, 2020 @04:40AM (#24141196)
Developer here. I'd be very happy to take a paycut to work at Mozilla - until yesterday's announcement, that was actually my explicit medium-term career goal. I'd be there for the mission, and I would expect the same for the C-level.

I feel like the CEO is absolutely in the wrong here. If they're making 20x what a technical writer or tester is making, it absolute is a bad look not to take a paycut when you're sending 250 people into the street.

Re:Thank You MDN by Aeolun on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:32AM (#24140860)
> you have to pay market rate or you can’t find a CEO at all

I can guarantee that you’d find a perfectly willing CEO somewhere in the people laid off now if you told them you’d only pay them 500k.

Re:Thank You MDN by spanhandler on Thursday August 13, 2020 @11:37AM (#24144456)
I don't get why we decided at some point you need someone anointed with CEO Fairy Dust to be CEO. I 100% guarantee the job is not so damn hard, subtle, or complex that practically no-one on Earth can do it. There are probably 20 people at Mozilla right now (haha, OK, maybe not anymore) who could step into the role and would gladly do so at $500,000/yr. Unless the responsibilities, procedures, and state of things at that level is so poorly understood and documented that someone else coming in would have to start from scratch, which seems like a massive organizational failure if that's the case.

It's. Just. A. Job.

I suspect this is yet another manifestation of the crippling, organizationally-irrational-but-individually-rational levels of risk avoidance we're operating under now.

Re:Thank You MDN by pm90 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @12:11PM (#24144895)
The elevation of CSuite as magical makers of wealth, when most of that value is created by the organization, needs to stop. Good leadership is important, but CEO comp is completely atrocious and unsustainable. Especially if the alternative is to lay off a ton of employees just to maintain operations.

We can see it right here how it’s killing a value generation vehicle. The CEO won’t accept a pay cut, but is willing to shut down entire product lines. A similar story has played out across America.

Re:Thank You MDN by mcguire on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:07PM (#24147046)
The market rate for CE* jobs is set by ... other people who have CE* jobs.
Re:Thank You MDN by spanhandler on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:52PM (#24147769)
I have a suspicion the supply side of this market equation is artificially constrained by people who have an interest (social and financial) in keeping it so, and that is part of why we've seen CEO pay go up so much in the last few decades.

There are plenty of people who could do well in the CEO job at most companies—no worse than the average we're getting now, anyway. There are far fewer "CEO types".

Re:Thank You MDN by MaxBarraclough on Thursday August 13, 2020 @05:47AM (#24141564)
Apparently [0] the EFF pay their CEO $257,500.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24132195

Re:Thank You MDN by driverdan on Thursday August 13, 2020 @10:00AM (#24143400)
The EFF is also about 1/50th the size of Mozilla.
Re:Thank You MDN by pantalaimon on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @12:41PM (#24212456)
Is CEO pay a function of the number of employees? Then a 25% cut would be justified.
Re:Thank You MDN by phonon on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:47AM (#24140300)
Why don't you ask Brendan Eich how much he was willing to be paid to be CEO?

Being CEO of Mozilla could attract highly qualified, passionate people, who are not primarily driven by "competitive compensation". You know; the same impulse that underlies the whole open source movement.

Re:Thank You MDN by notyourday on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:12AM (#24142964)
Brendan Eich was a technie.

These are non-profit execs. They exist to fleece the donors and live off the spoils. It just happened that the non-profit in question has a mission appealing to the technologists.

Re:Thank You MDN by phone8675309 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:16AM (#24142551)
> But why should a CEO accept “a lot of money”, if elsewhere they can get 5x as much?

Why should their CEO get any money and not a pink slip? Their mismanagement and financial games caused the company to have to lay off 250 people.

Re:Thank You MDN by mkr-hn on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:27AM (#24143088)
The situation seems to create a paradox where any new CEO will expect that much or more to risk the career/reputation damage of not being able to save it if they take over.
Re:Thank You MDN by belorn on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:18AM (#24140776)
There are many CEO that earn a lot less, especially in the non-profit sector. Market rate can be quite misleading when you are including widely different markets with very different goals.

If mozilla want to be more like EFF and focus on the advocacy aspect then maybe they should be similar paid. Even better, merge the two organizations and replace the leadership with the one in EFF. No need to go and look for a CEO willing to be paid 1/10th of current wages as there is already one available doing that now.

Re:Thank You MDN by Dylan16807 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:16AM (#24140766)
If you slightly expand your requirements for recruiting, instead of fighting over existing CEOs, you'll hit tons of qualified people that are not making millions and are not getting offers to make millions. And there's enough of them that if all companies did this the glut of supply would drop median CEO pay like a rock.
Re:Thank You MDN by mvn9 on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:58AM (#24140375)
You will always find a person willing to be called CEO for $500,000. The question is: which skills do you get for that money? Would you find a person who doesn't fire the MDN team and still keeps Mozilla profitable?
Re:Thank You MDN by cutemonster on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:24AM (#24142166)
I find it weird that people so often think that only those who want lots of money can do a good job

> Would you find a person who doesn't fire the MDN team and still keeps Mozilla profitable?

I think there's such people among the engineers at Mozilla, but maybe not among the current execs

Re:Thank You MDN by cabalamat on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:24AM (#24140508)
> Would you find a person who doesn't fire the MDN team and still keeps Mozilla profitable?

With a greater probability than the current management, yes.

Re:Thank You MDN by Aeolun on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:35AM (#24140879)
> Would you find a person who doesn't fire the MDN team and still keeps Mozilla profitable?

That question is impossible to answer, but my instinct leans towards ‘yes, potentially’. Even if they do not, they’re still 2M/year better off.

Re:Thank You MDN by xxs on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:06AM (#24142026)
I doubt you would get worse than the current management team.
Re:Thank You MDN by notyourday on Thursday August 13, 2020 @08:29AM (#24142658)
> It is a lot of money in absolute terms, for sure. But why should a CEO accept “a lot of money”, if elsewhere they can get 5x as much? All this moralizing doesn’t help. You can call people greedy as much as you want, but you have to pay market rate or you can’t find a CEO at all. People have no obligation to accept a lower than market rate salary, they have hard power leverage in negotiations in the sense that they can easily walk away from deals where you offer such a “low” salary.

This is not about an abstract CEO. This is about a CEO who is a total utter failure that could only get this job in a non-profit/corp hybrid.

Re:Thank You MDN by onion2k on Thursday August 13, 2020 @06:49AM (#24141925)
You can call people greedy as much as you want, but you have to pay market rate or you can’t find a CEO at all.

There would be a very long queue of people willing to do any of the C-suite jobs for $500k.

Re:Thank You MDN by mgkimsal on Thursday August 13, 2020 @09:38AM (#24143190)
Or $800k. Or $1m. Or $1.2m.

The $2.5m -> $500k is an easy soundbite, but it doesn't have to even be that drastic.

Granted, shaving 'only' $1m off might only allow you to 'save', say 8-12(?) jobs, but... that's 8-12 people, some with families

Re:Thank You MDN by spanhandler on Thursday August 13, 2020 @11:41AM (#24144514)
Yes but would they be the right people? You know. The right ones. Who are friends with members of the board, and are therefore already rich enough and socialized such that they can be friends with members of the board.
Re:Thank You MDN by xxs on Thursday August 13, 2020 @07:33AM (#24142233)
I wonder how the 'market' rate was estimated. Was it compared to other non-profit org, or just picked some random SV ones?
Re:Thank You MDN by mcguire on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:10PM (#24147073)
Re:Thank You MDN by mcguire on Thursday August 13, 2020 @02:58PM (#24146919)
"...you can’t find a CEO at all..."

Would that be a bad thing? How? I'm sure somebody would step up to make decisions, and you never know, they might actually be competent. The odds don't seem markedly worse.

Re:Thank You MDN by FooBarWidget on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @08:37AM (#24197870)
You seriously underestimate how important it is to have a good leader in a large organization. No, making everything flat won't magically make things work.

Github was leaderless for a long time. And during that period it was chaos. The company had no direction, employees were doing random, incoherent things. And multiple factions fought for power.