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Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by elcritch on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:20AM (#24129083)
What?! Servo and the tech coming out of it is the only reason I’ve begun using Firefox as my daily driver again. The Quantum stuff has made Firefox usable again. How are these CEO’s chosen? Really seems like Mozilla should be turned into a CO-OP or something.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by Jonnax on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:46AM (#24129212)
So there's a comment from the CEO here: https://answers.thenextweb.com/s/mitchell-baker-aGY62z

"Please explain how your salary of $2.5 million couldn't be put to better use as part of Emerging Technology's budget?"

"Executive compensation is a general topic -- are execs, esp CEOs paid too much? I'm of the camp that thinks the different between exec comp and other comp is high. So then i think, OK what should mozilla do about it? My answer is that we try to mitigate this, but we won't solve this general social problem on our own. Here's what I mean by mitigate: we ask our executives to accept a discount from the market-based pay they could get elsewhere. But we don't ask for an 75-80% discount. I use that number because a few years ago when the then-ceo had our compensation structure examined, I learned that my pay was about an 80% discount to market. Meaning that competitive roles elsewhere were paying about 5 times as much. That's too big a discount to ask people and their families to commit to."

No self awareness that rather than getting rid of people building interesting products, they don't realise that they should get rid of themselves and other executives.

Firefox has been on a downward trajectory in marketshare for the last 5 years. And they've struggled to reduce their reliance on search engine deals by creating other revenue streams.

They're all failures and have no self awareness.

Effectively answering: We've all got ferraris and McMansions to pay off

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by JanSt on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:55AM (#24129263)
> I learned that my pay was about an 80% discount to market.

Considering the companies performance, she should have been put on a PIP a long time ago, even considering the so called 80% discount. Never seems to happen to CEOs though.

Management is out of touch with reality if they think they deliver any value here.

edit: he to she, thanks!

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by oefrha on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:59AM (#24129291)
Mitchell Baker is a she. Largely agree with the PIP part.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by saagarjha on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:09AM (#24129345)
*she
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by dingaling on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:16AM (#24129681)
Why make a distinction?
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by saagarjha on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:32AM (#24129767)
The same reason you’d value accuracy anywhere else.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by searchableguy on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:10AM (#24129350)
Why did you correct it again?
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by saagarjha on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:12AM (#24129369)
When I left the comment it said “he”. Nothing more than that, hence the terse reply.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by Spare_account on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:25AM (#24129449)
I've been reading comments on this thread for a few minutes, with my kids distracting me mixed in. I've been on the page for over ten minutes. The two corrections came through ~10 apart.

It's entirely plausible that when saagarjha loaded the page, the first correction hadn't even been made yet.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by saagarjha on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:34AM (#24129773)
Yup, this pretty much. I expected this to be a small correction and then my comment would end up being collapsed by a passing moderator, but I guess it didn’t completely work out that way this time.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by MrBuddyCasino on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:58AM (#24129277)
For those who haven’t seen it yet, handy chart of Firefox market share vs Mozilla Foundation chair salary https://twitter.com/withoutboats/status/1217558588857544704?...
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by pitay on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:15AM (#24129389)
Note that Brendan Eich resigned April 2014. Here is the original post for that graph and a bit of discussion on HN relating to the dismissal of 70 Mozilla employees at the time. : https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1217512049716035584 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22058629
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by jansan on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:08AM (#24129338)
That is one embarrassing chart, especially for a company like Mozilla. Have they considered firing that person, yet?
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by csomar on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:20AM (#24129410)
Seems like Baker salary is correlated to Firefox marketshare. If I'm extrapolating correctly, a $0 salary should give Firefox 90% marketshare.

// just kidding of course.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by catch123 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:24AM (#24129440)
I'm actually very saddened by this. What are the alternatives? Use chrome/chromium or other blink powered browsers and let google have it's way with the web? I wish some organizations like Tor will fork firefox and absorb these talent, then I can contribute whatever I can afford monthly to it, knowing that anything I contribute will be going to the betterment of the web than into incompetent management. Maybe they can start a kickstarter campaign or something, I will definitely contribute.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by toastal on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:59AM (#24130657)
There's still Epiphany and Midori as Webkit-based browsers, but you're gonna lose Web Extensions, Service Workers by default, nice dev tools, and a lot of things in the process.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by bouk on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:52AM (#24129246)
Wow what a piece of shit. How will my poor family survive without $200k every month???
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by gspr on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:40AM (#24130980)
> "Please explain how your salary of $2.5 million couldn't be put to better use as part of Emerging Technology's budget?"

Why should a nonprofit's CEO be paid that much? Why the hell? I can't grasp this. I don't even understand why they'd make more than a few times what the typical programmer in the organization makes.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by curiousgal on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:23AM (#24129431)
She's on my list of terrible female CEOs along with

Marissa Mayer

Susan Wojcicki

Elisabeth Holmes

Edit: in case you missed my username I'm a female myself.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by mroset on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:28AM (#24129471)
Are you pointing out any genuine connections between the management styles or financial decision making of these other CEOs, or bringing them up just because of their shared gender?

Is there any non-sexist reason to have a list of "terrible female CEOs"?

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by yread on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @05:01AM (#24129893)
Not a female here, but one reason to have a list is that people are always looking for a relatable role model. As a women you would want to avoid looking at these CEOs as role models. You should have a list of reasons why you're avoiding them and bring it up when somebody else non-critically tries to put them on a pedestal.

EDIT: on the other hand as an immigrant (really my only "discriminated against" feature) I wouldn't search for immigrant CEOs as role models, so I'm not sure if it's worth it to look for women role models as a woman.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by slap on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:28AM (#24129465)
Carly Fiorina (HP)
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by ksec on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:14AM (#24130783)
Ginni Rometty ( IBM )
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by thu2111 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:32AM (#24132386)
Just for a bit of balance here, Lisa Su seems to be doing pretty well at AMD. Hard to tell how much of it is her vs the legacy of Jim Kellar though.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by ofrzeta on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:57AM (#24129592)
This is ridiculous. In my world there are many CEOs of "small and medium enterprises" who are happy to earn 500k.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by winrid on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:52AM (#24129245)
Well, it's hard to convince someone to get rid of themselves...
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by young_unixer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:32AM (#24129487)
A reminder to never donate to Mozilla.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by LockAndLol on Friday August 14, 2020 @01:26PM (#24160669)
I can't help but think we're experiencing the slow demise of Mozilla and have been for a while now. What kind of family needs 2.5M a year?

NGO CEO just sounds like an oxymoron to me too. CEOs make me think of revenue increase, while I assume NGOs have very different goals - or at least they should have. It just seems like a fundamental misalignment.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by pitay on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:52AM (#24129572)
ere is a (selective) look at the management of Mozilla in the recent past.

From Mitchell Bakers blog https://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2018/08/07/in-memoriam-gerva... “Gerv’s faith did not have ambiguity at least none that I ever saw. Gerv was crisp. He had very precise views about marriage, sex, gender and related topics. He was adamant that his interpretation was correct, and that his interpretation should be encoded into law. These views made their way into the Mozilla environment. They have been traumatic and damaging, both to individuals and to Mozilla overall.”

From http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2018/07/29/gerv.html

“I bring up Gerv's open-mindedness because I know that many people didn't find him so, but, frankly, I think those folks were mistaken. It is well documented publicly that Gerv held what most would consider particularly “conservative values”. And, I'll continue with more frankness: I found a few of Gerv's views offensive and morally wrong. But Gerv was also someone who could respectfully communicate his views. I never felt the need to avoid speaking with him or otherwise distance myself. Even if a particular position offended me, it was nevertheless clear to me that Gerv had come to his conclusions by starting from his (a priori) care and concern for all of humanity. Also, I could simply say to Gerv: I really disagree with that so much, and if it became clear our views were just too far apart to productively discuss the matter further, he'd happily and collaboratively find another subject for us to discuss. Gerv was a reasonable man. He could set aside fundamental disagreements and find common ground to talk with, collaborate with, and befriend those who disagreed with him. That level of kindness and openness is rarely seen in our current times.”

Here is an article another person who knew Gervase Markham who refutes Mitchell Bakers account https://lwn.net/Articles/762345/ . Worth a read.

Brendan Eich on the jump in executive share since he was let go: https://twitter.com/BrendanEich/status/1217512049716035584 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22058629

Here is Brokedamouth on the two class system now at Mozilla https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22061500 Comment replicated here (it is worth looking at the whole discussion): “I was at Mozilla for a while and it was a two-class system. The execs flew first class, stayed in fancy hotels, and had very expensive dinners and retreats - sometimes in the high five-figures. This is not even included in comp. One time, the CFO sent out a missive urging everyone to stay in AirBnB to save money and the execs (literally the following week) booked $500/night rooms at a hotel in NYC. I think the moment that made it clear as day was during a trip to Hawaii for the company all hands. The plane was a 737 so you had to walk past first class. These all hands are a huge deal for families - many were struggling down the aisle, carrying booster seats, etc. And they were passing two of the C-levels sitting in giant first-class seats sipping tropical cocktails. The rule in the military is that men eat first, officers last. Mozilla has always reversed that rule and the result was a pretty toxic culture, all around.”

Shown here is the trustworthiness of the current CEO, having a go at someone because their opinions disagreed with theirs, this is straight after his death when he couldn't defend himself. The people who knew him have a very different opinion on what he was like compared to her, and it can be seen what changed with how executives were treated compared to the rest of the employees.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by s1t5 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:12AM (#24129373)
Answering this question directly is a such an obvious trap, I'm surprised they fell for it.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by roca on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:10AM (#24130747)
Most of "Quantum" has been just solid engineering work on Gecko. Servo tech, in the form of Stylo, helped a bit, WebRender will help a bit more but has been mostly developed in the context of Gecko for years. "Servo is the only reason I've been using Firefox again" is not accurate at all.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by guerrilla on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:32AM (#24129136)
> Really seems like Mozilla should be turned into a CO-OP or something.

I wonder if the people being fired would be sufficiently equipped to do that themselves. Though losing access to the branding may not be workable.

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by elcritch on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:45AM (#24129207)
Hmmm... if they could raise money, Servo and the "rust" link could have decent brand backing... Many alpha-geeks know of it.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by guerrilla on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:48AM (#24129226)
Yeah, you're probably right especially considering rust. Maybe they can crowdfund it. I think a lot of us and many others using OSS would pitch in to see that happen.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by rjknight on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:20AM (#24129412)
Same. As someone building a web app, the existence of good non-Blink/Webkit browsers is matter of importance to me, and I'd happily help to fund alternatives.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by smnthermes on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:03AM (#24132161)
WebCore is already far diverged from Blink, and V8 was made from the scratch. WebKit is a solid alternative to Chromium.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by elric on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:56AM (#24129269)
At this rate, the name is starting to become associated with incompetence, so maybe a fork with a new name might be a good idea.

A co-op would make for an interesting business model for a FOSS company. Has this been tried before? Are there any well known cases out there?

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by dandellion on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:07AM (#24129332)
The atrocious management is the main reason I refuse to donate a cent to Mozilla. I have no problem donating monthly to Blender and Godot, even though I don't use those nearly as much as Firefox. I would love to support the developers if they made a fork that was actually supported by the community.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by sanxiyn on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:15AM (#24129390)
Especially problematic is that there is no way to donate to Firefox. None. Neither is there way to donate to Rust. As a result, I donate to Zig, but not to Rust.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by elric on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:48AM (#24132038)
The same seems true for many projects under the Apache Software Foundation banner. You can donate to the ASF, but not to (most? many?) individual projects. Might be nice for these types of foundations to update their donations policy. Support project-specific donations, and maybe take some % to support the parent foundation's working.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by mulmen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:11AM (#24129357)
I don’t have any negative association with the Firefox name (yet) but I definitely do with the Mozilla name.
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by techntoke on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:35AM (#24129158)
Time to fork it
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by fulafel on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @02:59AM (#24129288)
Is the Servo originated engine ( WebRender) doing that well in Firefox? Feels like it's very slow work to make it enabled by default in stable and the speedups haven't been yhat great, meanwhile there are basically 2 very different modes that they have to support and maintain.

(this is just because GPU drivers are so flaky afaict)

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by sanxiyn on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:06AM (#24129331)
It took a long time, but WebRender is now enabled everywhere if you are on Windows 10 (and not on battery power). Current status here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Platform/GFX/WebRender_Where
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by spiderfarmer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:16AM (#24129393)
It's enabled on Windows 10 but unfinished on all other platforms:

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Platform/GFX/WebRender_Where

Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by fulafel on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:24AM (#24131816)
replying to myself, apparently there's a software based webrender code path in developent too, maybe the long term plan is to drop the non-webrender code paths and just fall back to sw-webrender on setups where there are GPU driver problems?
Re:Mozilla Fires Servo Devs and Security Response Teams by AmericanChopper on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:40AM (#24129523)
> How are these CEO’s chosen?

Well obviously the most important factor is making sure they haven’t donated money to any of the wrong political causes.