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Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by pier25 on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:20PM (#24095321)
> but would drain us in a legal battle we could never afford

Can someone explain how does that work?

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by porknubbins on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:37PM (#24095446)
I think the part of the answer is that in the US legal system the discovery process is disproportionately expansive and expensive, being adversarial in nature, as opposed to many civil law countries where the judge tells both parties what documents they will have to produce so that the judge can rule. Here you argue with each other why you both need to review 100k or millions of results of keyword searches. Actually an individual or very small company litigant would be at an advantage not having much in the way of records to search.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by Thorentis on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:09PM (#24095640)
I don't think it is as simple as civil vs common law differences. The fact that legal professionals charge so much money for glorified word processing and petty arguing is the problem. Especially given the over supply of legal graduates and ever lower quality of judges you will face.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by wldcordeiro on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:23PM (#24095349)
You as an individual or a small company being built off the savings of an individual cannot afford the myriad of legal fees associated with the process the large corporation is putting you through. It's really not hard to understand how a company with billions in the bank can literally just "war of attrition" you into losing any case, even ones they have no standing to win.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by pier25 on Saturday August 08, 2020 @07:38PM (#24096109)
But doesn't the state provide a free lawyer to anyone that needs one?

(if that's not obvious, I'm not from the US btw)

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by michaelmrose on Sunday August 09, 2020 @12:33AM (#24097280)
Not for civil cases and in truth even if criminally prosecuted you are only sure to have a body you aren't actually in fact guaranteed competent representation in fact but rather only in law. In America if someone with more money than you disagrees with you and has even a trivial cause of action its entirely plausible they can legally destroy your finances and your life.

Having the most money is pretty much the only thing that matters here.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by ummonk on Saturday August 08, 2020 @07:45PM (#24096139)
Not for civil cases. But again for something like this I don't see why you would rather drop the issue and capitulate rather than at least try to fight it out without a lawyer.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by sowbug on Saturday August 08, 2020 @08:59PM (#24096472)
To "fight it out without a lawyer" runs the risk of the court resolving the case against you and awarding damages, most pathetically via entry of default judgment if you can't even figure out how to properly file an initial response to the complaint.

Not to mention your own time likely being better spent elsewhere.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by astura on Saturday August 08, 2020 @07:44PM (#24096135)
Not in civil cases, only criminal
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by paulpauper on Saturday August 08, 2020 @07:49PM (#24096165)
that only applies for criminal cases, not civil
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by quercusa on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:22PM (#24095336)
Twitter has lots of money to spend on lawyers; he didn't. (The US does not have a 'loser pays' legal system.)
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by simias on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:58PM (#24095579)
>The US does not have a 'loser pays' legal system.

Even if it had, you'd still have to manage to stay afloat all the way to the verdict. It wouldn't be hard for powerful entities to let the process drag long enough to sink you in fees, even if you could hope to get it all back eventually.

And that would be a very risky bet too, would you bet a few millions against a, say, 95% chance that you'll get that pear logo or that "scoper" trademark? That's a 5% chance of losing and going bankrupt.

The only solution is for the process itself to be cheaper. The system shouldn't allow big players to bully small ones.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by namibj on Sunday August 09, 2020 @02:44AM (#24097812)
The point is, that Apple/Twitter wouldn't have that incentive to go into a battle with 5% chance of acquiring that trademark and 95% chance of being out a couple million.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by simias on Sunday August 09, 2020 @07:37AM (#24098938)
Not so sure honestly, because the real equation would be more like "90% chances that the smaller company won't challenge it, 10% that it will even reach a verdict".

After all with the current system if it goes to court Apple/Twitter will probably have to pay a few millions for their own legal fees. Having them reimburse the other party if it goes all the way and they lose will make it even more expensive, but I don't know if it'll be enough to really change their mentality.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by steego on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:34PM (#24095430)
We get that.

He’s asking for someone to explain how the legal system allows a big business to force a smaller business to spend money on legal fees.

Also, how do other countries protect the little guy from frivolous lawsuits?

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by zaarn on Sunday August 09, 2020 @01:14AM (#24097432)
Well, in Germany the solution is the standard rate for lawyers. When you loose a court case, you do have to pay the loosers costs. But only the hours they spent in court or drafting actual legal documents related to the case, no the lunch break where the lawyer bought ice cream.

There is also a limit in discovery, so you can't drag court cases on forever as you want.

So even if you, as a small SMB, get sued by Twitter, and you only bring your off-the-street lawyer and Twitter brings their 12-headed star team of lawyers, you won't pay more than double your lawyer's bill if you loose in terms of legal fees.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by stormdennis on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:39PM (#24095466)
I'm thinking of the Mclibel lawsuit. McDonald's couldn't scare their defendants off because they were "men of straw".
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by not2b on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:59PM (#24095905)
The UK is far worse than the US when it comes to libel law: if a big company sues, the burden of proof is on the individual sued to document every statement. In the US, the plaintiff has the burden of proving that the statements were false and damaging.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by paulpauper on Saturday August 08, 2020 @08:02PM (#24096240)
yeah, but is is much harder for plaintiffs to collect in the UK than in the US. Losing a lawsuit in the UK is not nearly as bad as losing one in the US because the Uk has really crappy asset recovery procedures. The US requires losers to disclose everything under the penalty of perjury.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by Aerroon on Sunday August 09, 2020 @12:38AM (#24097301)
It might be more difficult to collect, but there is an undue burden on the individual when the court tries to determine the truth of the matter.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by dredmorbius on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:56PM (#24095888)
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by pier25 on Saturday August 08, 2020 @07:35PM (#24096098)
Exactly, thanks.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by bdcravens on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:58PM (#24095576)
Discovery requests. Quantity of, and postponement of, hearings. Travel expenses. Meetings with your attorney(s) at the cost of several hundred or thousands of dollars per hour. Time and effort required by your staff. Potential injunctions, paralyzing revenue and fundraising while you wait for resolution of the case.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by akvadrako on Sunday August 09, 2020 @02:45AM (#24097818)
That does not sound like minimal effort. I would say minimal effort means getting the cheapest lawyer you can find and having him comment on quick replies you draft yourself to any requests you get.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by gundmc on Saturday August 08, 2020 @05:23PM (#24095352)
Lawyers are expensive. Court cases take a very long time. It doesn't matter if you win the judgment if you run out of money in the process.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by bonoboTP on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:00PM (#24095598)
Why do I have to pay anything just for getting sued?

The other party should make the case that I infringed on their rights. If I'm sure I'm in the clear, why do I have to move even just my pinky finger? What fees do I have to pay? I don't care about the process, don't want to submit anything. Is there a fee for getting sued?

As far as I understand, the problem in America is that nonaction is often assumed to be an admission of guilt. But "actions" often cost money, or can only be legally performed by lawyers who take insane hourly wages. Crazy system.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by tossthere on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:28PM (#24095741)
Yep! Lawyers basically just look for legal entities with money, and exploit the justice system to take as much of it as they can without bankrupting the source. Constant flow.

They’re like a tax paid by every person or company with a significant sum of money in America. Doesn’t matter if they’re right or wrong, grounds or no grounds, there will still be a team of lawyers on your side taking your money to “defend” you.

Does your lawyer’s $20,000 motion really have any chance of succeeding? Did he really have to pay that company $12,000 to convert all your files to TIFFs? Did he really spend 16 hours on that letter, or does he have 95% of it saved in a template somewhere?

At first you’re happy to have lawyers on your side. But eventually you realize even the ones defending you are in on the same game, and are just there to rob you.

Don’t ever tell anyone you have money or that your company is successful.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by Gene_Parmesan on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:54PM (#24095878)
This is an extremely bitter take. I'm sorry you apparently have had one or more negative experiences. Speaking as an ex-lawyer who left the profession, there are definitely myriad things wrong with it.

However, your statement is a dangerous one. It's a ludicrous thought to try to run a company of any size/complexity without at least occasional legal support. As expensive as lawyers can be, trying to navigate legal obligations & requirements without counsel can be disastrously more expensive.

As with anything, it comes down to who you hire and for what purpose. With your mention of motions and such it seems you're mostly talking about litigation. Yeah, litigation can be extremely expensive and there are absolutely firms that appear to want to drag out cases to charge more fees. A lot of this is a problem more with our civil legal system here in the US (civil as in civil vs. criminal, not civil vs. common law). Litigation has become nearly pay-to-win -- but a lot of the fault for that can be laid at the feet of megacorps and tort """reform""".

So yes, litigation can be eye-wateringly expensive. But the best way to avoid litigation is to judiciously use the services of legal professionals. This may shock you, but the vast majority of lawyers are in it for nothing more than a 9-5 career and out of the satisfaction of navigating tricky situations, and the vast majority of lawyers in the US make significantly under six figures -- which doesn't go very far when paired with shocking student loan burdens.

So by all means, avoid keeping megafirms on retainer. They certainly have motivations to find work for themselves.

But luckily, there's a fairly good alternative -- in-house counsel. If your lawyer is on your payroll, they have zero incentive to do anything extraneous. Furthermore, you can rely upon them to keep an eye on any additional outside counsel you may need -- to tip you off if they think you're being charged for make-work. If you can't afford the payroll hit of in-house (which does not have to be enormous, we're talking in the 70k - 110k range for a good, experienced counsel), then seek out recs for smaller firms with track records of representing small businesses.

I know this comment has come across as defensive, but trust me, I have nothing to be defensive over. I left the profession for good reasons and have nothing positive to say (and plenty negative) about what we call biglaw. I guess it's just the vestigial shell of a lawyer still living inside of me that cringes whenever I see someone strongly recommending businesses avoid legal representation. It's just asking for disaster.

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by tossthere on Saturday August 08, 2020 @07:31PM (#24096078)
Just to be clear, none of what I wrote is legal advice and I would never recommend avoiding legal representation. My point wasn’t that you should avoid it, my point was that in America you often don’t have any choice but to retain counsel, even when you know your own counsel are just additional parties to the game of robbing you.

> But luckily, there's a fairly good alternative -- in-house counsel. If your lawyer is on your payroll, they have zero incentive to do anything extraneous.

This sounds like a good way for companies to mitigate the issue of perverse incentives, but how can individuals benefit from this?

Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by ghostDancer on Sunday August 09, 2020 @08:03AM (#24099023)
The system is arranged to protect companies not individuals.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by ficklepickle on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:17PM (#24095691)
Based on the legal TV shows I've seen, you can get drowned by motions. If the other side files a motion, you have to respond to it. If they have a large legal team, they can pull more legal manoeuvres than your side can even read, let alone respond to.
Re:Apple takes legal action against small company with pear ... by danielheath on Saturday August 08, 2020 @08:18PM (#24096320)
If you let the other party make their case unopposed, you are unlikely to get a favorable result.

You can do it, though.