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Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by euix on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:45PM (#24077966)
I might get downvoted for this but I think it's a very real possibility. Withdraw the embassy from Beijing, recognize Taiwan and force a embargo of all Taiwanese/Korean and Japanese semiconductor supplies and components to Mainland China.

Then sit back and let China then make the first move. Might not work, but at this point I wouldn't put it past somebody in the White House having already gamed it.

There has never been a case in human history where one group of people voluntarily gave up their wealth, status and privilege to another group of people. Wealth transfer always leads to violence.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by chvid on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:25AM (#24079262)
You can be sure that "war games" are being played out routinely.

The problem here is that this is an obvious escalation with US as the aggressor and not all US allies are willing to follow the US into war as the current administration is seen as unreliable.

You even had the former and current (!) prime ministers of Australia warning of high likelihood of a war between China and the US within the next 3 months. Where the next 3 months of course is the period of the US presidential election indicating that they clearly see a connection between the US elections and increased China tensions.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by jjeaff on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:07AM (#24079524)
Is it really the US making the first move? Facebook is blocked in China as are several other big countries. Granted, this is a ban after the company made inroads, but it seems that China has been doing this for a long time now and in many industries.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by chvid on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:47AM (#24080176)
Who made the first move is kind of a philosophical question. And the tech war is part of a bigger "war" that is currently unfolding going from rhetorics to trade to military maneuvers.

What is more important is how it is being perceived amongst other countries around the south china sea. And as far as I can tell the US does not have the support it normally would have. Even from surefire allies such as Australia.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by plandis on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:47AM (#24079788)
China has been doing moves like this for a long time so I don’t know how the US is the first aggressor here. Several US tech companies have been banned in China for a while at this point.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by chrischen on Friday August 07, 2020 @07:22AM (#24080695)
So what are we China now? Also I'm not sure it's quite true those companies were banned. Google voluntarily pulled out of the Chinese market, and re-entered.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by mlazos on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:41AM (#24081197)
“Voluntarily” leaving due to ridiculous restrictions that the CCP knows a company won’t comply with looks a lot like “forced” to me.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by chrischen on Saturday August 08, 2020 @06:43AM (#24090570)
So how do you explain the re-entering the market by Google?

The "rules" were sovereign rules China applied and it's not as if other search engines or companies in China could get away without following those same rules... plus, such rules are now being applied to ByteDance and WeChat in the USA to make them "voluntarily" pull out as well and this of courses legitimizes China's past and present actions (which is fundamentally why I do not think we should be going down this route).

It's basically admitting defeat if we start using the same policies as China. China owns up to their policies of censorship and heavy-handed market control. They're not hiding that fact. If we start down that path too then we're just adopting their system and admitting we can't beat them with a free market and freedom of access to apps/information.

Keep in mind that Trump's rationale for blocking WeChat is that it is "allowing the Chinese Communist Party a mechanism for keeping tabs on Chinese citizens who may be enjoying the benefits of a free society for the first time in their lives." That's basically saying the people are too stupid and must have their information access controlled—which, as you may know, is exactly the communist part of China's modus operandi.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by sbmthakur on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:49AM (#24079806)
> The problem here is that this is an obvious escalation with US as the aggressor and not all US allies are willing to follow the US into war as the current administration is seen as unreliable.

I don't see how US is the aggressor. The kind of control CCP has over these companies is well known and as someone who is not an American, I was surprised why the US admin had not taken stern measures till now. This standoff was initiated when China decided to kick out American companies for not subscribing to their censorship policies. And the way companies like WeChat feed into CCP's censorship framework is well known.

https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/wechat-surveillance-explained/

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by simonblack on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:04AM (#24078533)
but I think it's a very real possibility.

I'm classing it as a certainty. Have a read of the Wolfowitz Doctrine and work out what it necessitates, and that to be done very soon.

Even so, I believe the US has 'missed the bus'. It needed to have initiated vigorous conflict earlier this year to be sure of victory in that coming war. It can't start anything worthwhile now until at least the next Spring-Summer campaign season. By then China will have had another 12 months of growth, and the US another 12 months of decline.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by modeless on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:03AM (#24079153)
What does victory mean in the era of mutually assured destruction? I don't see how a shooting war between the US and China could not end in both sides getting nuked.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by baybal2 on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:23AM (#24079645)
> I don't see how a shooting war between the US and China could not end in both sides getting nuked.

There is only one country in the world which is reliably able to afford being nuked, and has "surviving first, and second strike" as part of its many doctrines.

The only major country against which MAD is not so assured is China.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by kingkawn on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:28AM (#24081109)
You’re talking about killing millions because of a disagreement in management styles
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by simonblack on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:49AM (#24081749)
Mao is reputed to have said regarding a nuclear war.

"Kill 300 million Chinese, still got a billion Chinese left. Kill 300 million Americans, no more America."

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by baybal2 on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:09AM (#24081369)
I'd say US, and China's contradictions are by far greater than "disagreement in management styles"

USA talks TikTak, but the world hears "the overall political arrangement of China"

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by pms on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:55AM (#24081816)
Invasion on Iraq led to many deaths and was based on false premises and similar "disagreement in management styles". War with China would be a terrible calamity. I don't understand why, but the US is turning into a bad actor, and the most scary thing is that it's convinced it's a good actor.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by empressplay on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:20AM (#24079234)
Which is why nobody will push the button, even if they're being invaded, they'll just accept being occupied and mount a resistance. MAD always relied on a fiction of natural insanity that doesn't actually exist. I don't think any tactician takes widespread nuclear exchanges seriously as a likely outcome to any contemporary global conflict.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by hnzix on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:20AM (#24079621)
The numerous instances of near-misses which were only averted by crew disobeying direct orders contradicts your narrative.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by jjeaff on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:10AM (#24079542)
You think we have all rational players in the game right now?
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by ideals on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:18AM (#24079224)
China could also just wait 3 more months until the election and decide action after that. If the presidency changes they are able to deal with a more rational player.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by FooBarWidget on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:10AM (#24079543)
China is already being very patient in waiting until the reelection. The US military is flaunting its military hardware near the mainland, and all this time China is basically ignoring the threat.

But the Trump administration is very active in launching more attacks. If you follow the news on what they've been doing to Chinese companies, the past month has been absolutely insane. The attacks are only getting faster and faster, as the Trump administration gets increasingly desperate to win a reelection.

Another problem is that all these attacks leave behind permanent damage. It's not just a matter of ignoring the attacks. I fear that at some point, we get past some boiling point, and things erupt into a hot war.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by seemack on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:13AM (#24081021)
I apparently don't follow the news on what they've been doing to Chinese companies. Do you have any links so that I can learn more?
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by FooBarWidget on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:47AM (#24081247)
My favorite is Tom Fowdy on Twitter. Disclaimer: he leans towards pro China.

Here is what he said two weeks ago about how much happened in the past two weeks. https://twitter.com/Tom_Fowdy/status/1285845346447499265

"As I noted a while ago, the US is on a roll announcing 2-3 anti-China measures a week. There has been one roughly every two days. It's just non-stop

-Closes the Chinese consulate in Houston

-Charges two nationals for hacking

-Adds more companies to the entity list over Xinjiang

-Bans federal contractors buying from Huawei

-Ups ante in the South China sea

-Blacklists officials

-Removes Hong Kong's special status

-Daily Cold War rhetoric from Pompeo

-Restricts Chinese student visas

-Ends fulbright scholar program Hong Kong

-Contemplating banning TikTok

Most of the above is in the past TWO WEEKS alone."

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by jimmydorry on Friday August 07, 2020 @10:57AM (#24082543)
All of these were justified though:

-Closes the Chinese consulate in Houston

>Allegedly caught spying

-Charges two nationals for hacking

>Conducting justice shouldn't be seen as a deliberate attempt to increase tension

-Adds more companies to the entity list over Xinjiang

>Black listing companies involved in perpetuating genocide against the Uighurs doesn't seem controversial to me

-Bans federal contractors buying from Huawei

>National security

-Ups ante in the South China sea

>Allowing China to claim that region puts a substantial amount of trade in jeopardy, due to many established shipping routes going through there. China is the aggressor here, regardless of what the media tries to portray.

-Blacklists officials

>You need to be more specific, but I assume you are referring to more Uighur genocide related sanctions

-Removes Hong Kong's special status

>Following the terms of the Hong Kong special status trade agreement that hinges on it being a self-governed state. (It no longer is)

-Daily Cold War rhetoric from Pompeo

>Sabre rattling, but could be taken as aggressive action depending on whether Pompeo was talking about any of the points above. If so, then it's warranted.

-Restricts Chinese student visas

>The world is in lock-down. Even countries heavily reliant on chinese student spending, have temporarily restricted such visas.

-Ends fulbright scholar program Hong Kong

>Why continue such programs when the status of such a country changes? Those programs and trade agreements have to be renegotiated.

-Contemplating banning TikTok

>Reciprocal treatment of western social media. So far the first and only deliberate escalation of tensions against China, on this list. Justified... but certainly an escalation.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by FooBarWidget on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:36PM (#24084495)
I am not expressing an opinion here on whether they are justified. Just that they happened.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by whoevercares on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:52AM (#24081272)
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by igravious on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:17PM (#24084286)
Super duper Orwellian given what we know about the NSA, GCHQ, GCSB, CSE, ASD and other Five Eyes shenanigans from Snowden.

edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes#Organisations

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by meragrin_ on Friday August 07, 2020 @01:33PM (#24084460)
> as the Trump administration gets increasingly desperate to win a reelection.

Or maybe, just maybe, he is doing something which he believes is the right thing to do and will help Americans? The ratcheting up could just be a tactic to force the next administration into a position to actually deal with the dysfunctional relationship rather than always rolling over and hoping things will be different like previous administrations.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by dis-sys on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:54AM (#24079456)
Go and read John Bolton's book, Xi made it clear to Trump in person that he wants Trump to have two more terms. An irrational US president undermining the US credibility in all possible aspects is good for China. Why Chinese would possibly want this trend to change?
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by labster on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:10AM (#24079540)
Bolton has many strong opinions that are not necessarily shared with the rest of the world -- not that he's wrong, but do use critical thinking. There are pros and cons here, like Trump causing short-term trade losses with China while they're dealing with political instability back home. Is economic stability worth more than relative world influence? Hard to say. Also, Xi telling Trump that he should have more terms is a classic way to play to a narcissist; it shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than flattery.

Honestly I think China has very little to gain from interfering on either side of the US election, and potentially a lot to lose. Russia, on the other hand...

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by ejanus on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:13AM (#24079564)
Bolton was fired.... Trump is a street man his yes may not be yes.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by loopz on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:50AM (#24079424)
A more realistic scenario is that US have a 3 months deadline to fix their political system, as rationality need an empiric and humane system to work within.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by ahmedalsudani on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:01AM (#24080960)
Are you seriously wishing for war with a nuclear power with ICBMs and the largest manufacturing capacity in the world?
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by trianglem on Friday August 07, 2020 @02:45AM (#24079054)
There is no one in the White House that can do any “gaming”. It’s all gut feel reactionary stuff now.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by kelnos on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:14AM (#24079200)
White House, no, but no doubt there are career officers and civilians in the Pentagon who have gamed this out in excruciating detail. I'm sure this was done even before the current administration came into power.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by loopz on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:53AM (#24079446)
It matters little with irrational decisionmaking overruling and abusing wargame results.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by Terr_ on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:32AM (#24080082)
"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."

-- Vice President Dick Cheney, 2005-06-20

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by ahmedalsudani on Friday August 07, 2020 @08:06AM (#24080989)
Cheney is

1. A thoroughly mendacious character 2. A moron

A lot of people ascribe malice to him, but it’s clear as day that he was in over his head with the entire project. Basically 0 of his goals have been achieved 17 years in.

So I would say that while the appearance of competent war games was there, it was a charade.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by mellow2020 on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:34AM (#24081605)
He was involved in a war of aggression, and his company made a bit of money both for destruction and rebuiling, did it not? And we can't even begin to guess how many "buddies" profited. At any rate, he's not in jail, and I think that is way too much success than is acceptable. He may be a moron, he certainly is a fool, but then what does that say about the ~300 million people in whose name he did his crimes, to live happily and smugly ever after?
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by rorykoehler on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:27AM (#24080032)
That will be part of the game design surely. If push comes to shove the war games will matter a lot.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by testrun on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:04AM (#24079512)
South Africa (1994) is one exception.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by kingkawn on Friday August 07, 2020 @06:09AM (#24080301)
South Africa’s power structure gave superficial political power in exchange for complete continuity of economic power.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by Ericson2314 on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:29AM (#24081564)
Well yes that's how these things usually go, but haven't a bunch of white people left? Doesn't make the economic wrong right, but does at least crudely function as justice.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by kingkawn on Friday August 07, 2020 @11:24AM (#24082885)
Symbolic appeasement without an actual change in living conditions for the majority of the populace who suffered the brunt of the exploitation is not justice
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by Ericson2314 on Friday August 07, 2020 @12:36PM (#24083809)
Punishing the perpetrators and undoing the damage are two different things. Absolutely more of the second is needed. But what I mentioned functions as a crude form of the first.

Like it or not, kicking out white people isn't just symbolism.

To be clear, I agree that transfer of power was a classic neoliberal failure, and the situation is a travesty.

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by gampleman on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:14AM (#24079199)
> There has never been a case in human history where one group of people voluntarily gave up their wealth, status and privilege to another group of people. Wealth transfer always leads to violence.

The Velvet Revolution comes to mind. Of course there is a possibility/threat of violent escalation in negotiating these things, but rational actors can make the calculus that getting a good enough deal guaranteed is better than fighting and potentially loosing a better one. However, it requires a non-totalitarian view of the world (i.e. the others are not enemies no matter what and must be punished for their bad deeds doesn't really allow you to negotiate in a de-escalatory manner).

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by anthonypasq on Friday August 07, 2020 @09:20AM (#24081466)
There is absolutely zero political will for a war with China. It will never happen
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by paganel on Friday August 07, 2020 @04:46AM (#24079783)
> There has never been a case in human history where one group of people voluntarily gave up their wealth, status and privilege to another group of people. Wealth transfer always leads to violence.

There was an interesting book published about two years ago (I'm too lazy to search for it) which showed that wealth "re-calibration" only really happened as a result of violent change. I know I wouldn't be here in front of a computer writing this comment if it hadn't been for WW2 that brought communist rule to my Eastern-European country, which communist rule brought forced industrialisation with the help of mass education (that was of course free, unlike before WW2). That benefited my parents who could make the "leap" from the countryside to the city. Probably a new war could similarly eliminate the wealth inequality in countries like the US.

Actually I looked for it and I'm 99% sure this is the book: "The Great Leveler: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century" [1]

[1] https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691183251/th...

Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by kortilla on Friday August 07, 2020 @05:36AM (#24080108)
> Probably a new war could similarly eliminate the wealth inequality in countries like the US.

Perhaps just by destroying wealth. It’s unlikely that any violence could improve the US middle class since it’s already richer than the middle class in most other countries. Best you can do at that point is just try to eliminate the wealthy if you’re fixated on income inequality.

[dead]
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by dirtyid on Friday August 07, 2020 @03:54AM (#24079450)
Banning wechat feels like pure Pompeo. Trump probably doesn't even know what wechat is. The craziest bat shit tier China-hawk already got purged, but this is still Pompeo, and if anything hes... good at manufacturing consent.
Re:US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days by godzillabrennus on Thursday August 06, 2020 @11:58PM (#24078084)
Ending Corporate America’s reliance on Chinese slave labor would create global recession.

Not likely that Trump would inflict even more economic damage during his presidency just before the Election.