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Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by burkaman on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:19PM (#23999918)
I realize the article is very vaguely written, but I don't think the argument is "Haskell has been used for cryptocurrency and that taints it forever."

I read it as "A significant portion of jobs and funding in the Haskell ecosystem come from cryptocurrency organizations, giving them a lot of influence over the future of the language and the community." It's about who controls development of the tool right now, not how the tool might be used, or who has been involved in the past.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by nine_k on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:33PM (#24000121)
Can mathematics be developed for nefarious purposes?

What kind of taint the current influence of the crypto-currency industry could leave on the technical side of the language?

If these guys are toxic within the development community, then, well, we have to somehow handle it — but again, we've seen highly prolific and highly toxic OSS contributors who wielded very different, "more noble" values, in the past. The problem may be the attitude, not the industry affiliation.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by burkaman on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:31PM (#24000816)
The analogy I would make is that there are many mathematicians and computer scientists who are unwilling to work for the CIA, but would be thrilled if a university gave them a lot of funding to research the exact same stuff. The math itself is not nefarious, but the community is.

If Haskell became known as "the crypto people's language", many talented computer scientists and engineers would be unwilling to join the community or invest anything in the language. Partly out of a sense of "I don't want to directly help them", and partly just "I don't know those people and I don't really want to go to their conferences, and all my friends in academia are working on <new language x>, what's that all about".

For someone like Stephen Diehl who is deeply embedded in the Haskell community and has invested a lot in it, that would be a personal and professional loss. You're right that the language itself and its technical features would not be nefarious, and would be replicated in 100 other languages.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by mcguire on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:43PM (#24001570)
If you want to use Fortran today, the jobs are essentially all government contracting. If you want to use Haskell today, the jobs are essentially all cryptocurrency. If you don't want to get into government contracting (which is hard to get out of), or if you don't want to do cryptocurrency, you don't get to use Fortran or Haskell.

What happens if the bottom falls out of the cryptocurrency job market? Does Haskell become Scheme, a language used only for language research?

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by tome on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:09PM (#24002861)
> If you want to use Haskell today, the jobs are essentially all cryptocurrency

This is not true, by the way.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by leephillips on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:10PM (#24002353)
Fortran is used all over for high performance computing, not just in government contracting. Scheme is not only used for language research. A large part of Julia, a pragmatic language for technical computing, is written in Scheme.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by eigenspace on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:27PM (#24003034)
> A large part of Julia, a pragmatic language for technical computing, is written in Scheme.

No, not really. The parser is written in FemtoLisp (a Scheme dialect), but that's it. It's not actually doing anything other than the parsing, and there's actually work being done to replace that with a pure julia parser.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by leephillips on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:53PM (#24003261)
In the first paper¹ describing the language design, by its creators, they state that:

“Our implementation of Julia consists of 11000 lines of C, 4000 lines of C++, and 3500 lines of Scheme”.

[1] https://julialang.org/blog/2012/08/design-and-implementation...

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by eigenspace on Friday July 31, 2020 @06:04PM (#24014746)
That's from 2012 when the language was in version 0.1. We're now in version 1.4 (1.5 launching soon!). At this point, 3.1% of the julia git repo is femptlisp (scheme), but I can assure you that is not being used for any heavy lifting or scientific computations. It's for the parser.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by avindroth on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:55PM (#24002762)
I think it is too much a reductionist thinking to think it’s the users, not the tools. Math and programming languages (and media like tv or videogames) can easily stand on the sidelines, outside of the range of criticism, by making the claim that it is not the medium, but the users.

But I would argue that knowledge about something is not necessarily within that thing, but around that thing as well. A handle is a handle because we have hands that can grasp the handle. No system in this world is closed (perhaps the universe itself but still doubtful), so any knowledge pertaining to a system (or a tool) must be dependent on its context. A handle acquires meaning because of humans. Same with mathematics, programming, or otherwise.

So I would argue that yes, mathematics can be developed for nefarious purposes. Anything can be. Just because something is more pure and seemingly neutral than others does not mean that thing will stay independent of its context. The outlier example is the statistical farcity and bias in scientific experiments. Take it a step further in the direction of objectivity, and you could also notice that bias plays a role in mathematical experiments.

Another interesting question might be: is uranium evil? Or are videogames evil? Are these seemingly neutral things, containers of things, evil? Or are common manifestations of them, or the way that the medium encourages its content (and the way that Haskell and its ecosystem encourage their application) relevant to the judgment of that particular “container”?

I believe a lot of this has to do with seemingly emotion-less quality of abstractions (i.e. containers). In the abstractions-land, the mathematics land, the “pure” land, only the relevant essence of the thing at hand is extracted, thus the compression seemingly occurs losslessly. However, in the compression from the real to the abstract, we have also lost the sensual, the tactile, the emotional. We go from a soul to a 4.5 million deaths. We go from the wet texture of water to H2O. By compressing, we gain, but also we lose.

A bit sidetracked, but I think any medium can appreciate being examined in such a way.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by msla on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:16PM (#24002908)
> Or are videogames evil?

I'll answer that when you give me a definition of the term.

Might want to start with defining "game" and then pare it down.

My point is, you can't say something is evil until you have a coherent definition of what that thing is.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by hevelvarik on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:43PM (#24003183)
Wut
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by mnsc on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:58PM (#24000437)
Interesting that you brought up mathematics. My shallow view of the haskell community is that they think haskell is/should be as theoretically solid as mathematics. And based on this, my interpretation of the underlying fear in the article is analogous to the Russian government somehow duping all the world's mathematicians to only work on the problem domain of breaking cryptos (and incidentally primarily the type of cryptos used by "enemy" nations) and all the mathematicians dropping everything and going "yeah, that sound super cool let's do that, maybe someone else will pick up my work in combinatorial topography"
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by tome on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:17PM (#24000658)
Why the Russian government specifically? Plenty of nations do encourage this of (some of) their mathematicians and this practice is also poorly regarded by some.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by mnsc on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:14PM (#24001292)
Just an convenient example of an actor with power to influence that easily could be seen to have an non-mathematical ulterior motive.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by sam_lowry_ on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:29PM (#24002003)
US fares better on this point, AFAICS.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by pizza on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:38PM (#24002082)
I assume by tooling the GP doesn't mean something like a monadic http library but something more like an app, like an offshore account balance checker
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by cinntaile on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:44PM (#24000263)
I have re-read the blog post and I can't find what you mention.

The blog post is basically telling us that cryptocurrencies and its leaders are a giant scam and they don't contribute anything of value to society.

Your interpretation is very generous if you ask me. A blog post with that angle would be interesting to read though. It would have more to do with the Haskell ecosystem than this one and it would be good to have that discussion if the cryptocurrency influence on the ecosystem is too big.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by burkaman on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:36PM (#24000869)
Well yes, if the author didn't think cryptocurrencies were a problem, then he probably wouldn't be bothered by crypto currencies influencing the community. There are always going to be large organizations influencing Haskell, like the UK government and Microsoft in the past. I'm guessing this blog post is aimed at people who work with Haskell and know about the crypto companies in the community, but see them like any other organization that funds open source development.

I agree it would be great to have more details about how big this influence is and how it manifests itself.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by sukilot on Thursday July 30, 2020 @10:00PM (#24004931)
It's not about "influence". It's about feeling bad that the Haskell libraries are being paid for by the victims of financial scams.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by regisg on Sunday August 02, 2020 @09:17AM (#24028516)
Cardano was funded with an ICO in Japan, one of the most restrictive country about crypto-currencies. The amount was 64M$ which is not that much for developing a blockchain for 5 years with almost 100 researchers & devs. It's not a scam.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by archgoon on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:00PM (#24001156)
> they don't contribute anything of value to society.

They appear to be funding Haskell development.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by asddubs on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:20PM (#24001914)
is that worth however many percent of the worlds energy usage?
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by exdsq on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:15PM (#24002901)
There’s no PoW Haskell chains I’m aware of, they’re POS chains which are far more energy efficient- therefore they reduce energy usage as people move over to them.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by vincnetas on Friday July 31, 2020 @01:22AM (#24005937)
Author does not mention energy usage at all. Main problem is that he thinks that crypto is a scam where a lot of people are being tricked. Would you like your language development to be funded by drug cartels or from blood diamonds profits?
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by asddubs on Friday July 31, 2020 @07:50AM (#24007763)
i agree crypto is a scam, and it's also a scam that's a giant waste of a huge chunk of the global generated electricity.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by elbear on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:31PM (#24002020)
It's hard to tell. Haskell could make a big impact on the technology of the future. Or not.
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by SkyMarshal on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:50PM (#24000338)
Does anyone have any notion of what language decisions might be affected, especially for the worse, by factoring cryptocurrency considerations into it?
Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by burkaman on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:59PM (#24001142)
I don't think the concern is that the language is going to get worse, but that funding will be concentrated on the few niches that benefit crypto applications, and that people might start saying "I don't really want to work with these people, I'm gonna go do something else."

Recently a casino was built near me, and they repaved a lot of roads and added bike lanes and stuff as part of the construction. The roads are objectively better now, but I don't want to live next to a casino no matter how good the roads are, and I would have preferred if the city government had funded that work instead, since I trust them more and I have some say in how they spend their money. If you were looking for a neighborhood to move into, the first thing you noticed wouldn't be the smooth bike lanes, it would be the huge casino you can see from anywhere in a 3 mile radius.

Re:The Haskell Elephant in the Room by dtseng123 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:40PM (#24002104)
You are correct.