"I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app."

Every effing time they convince users to install an app they magically have a tool to steal peoples personal data.

Not just headphones: the kids toy drone can be controlled using an app from the cellphone? The security camera just purchased doesn't use standard protocols over a web browser but needs its own app? The IoT system doesn't use standard protocols as well but forces the use of their app? Bad, bad and bad! And so on for every piece of hardware that needs a proprietary app that -betting all my horses on that- will ask for full permissions to access everything.

In this context, headphones are among the easily replaceable accessories with secure and better sounding ones. Just get wired ones and avoid architectures that force the use of wireless phones just to make a bigger business out of a misfeature.

I am aware of these issues and yet also sometimes prefer to have headphones without wires.

You could get a 'dumb' bluetooth adaptor for your wired-but-cable-changable headphones. e.g. https://thebtunes.com/

Or you could just get some basic noise-isolating bluetooth headphones. It sounds like most/all of these headphones that spy on people are ones with active noise cancelling.

> If I want to avoid this sort of thing, I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app.

Or just get one with a good old 3.5mm jack.

Beyer Dynamic, AKG and Shure have several options much cheaper than these Bose or Sony headsets which still give you at least 10x the audio-performance.

For headsets, if you care about usability, portability, longevity and performance, wired is still the no-brainer choice.

> Beyer Dynamic, AKG and Shure have several options much cheaper than these Bose or Sony headsets which still give you at least 10x the audio-performance.

It's complicated.

The lowest level opinion is "Bose and Beats are awesome, soooo much bass!!!" That's the typical consumer.

The level above that is what you said. That's sometimes called mid-fi. At least these things don't have major flaws anymore.

The next level is companies and products specifically focused on high performance - Stax, Audeze, Sennheiser, Etymotic, etc and their best models. That's the "audiophile" level (and here truth is mixed with a lot of bullshit also - stay away from head-fi.org, it's a cesspool of pseudoscience).

And the level above that is when you realize imperfections in headphones can be corrected via DSPs, for the most part.

I have the Sony noise cancelling flagship model. By default, it's deeply flawed. It's tuned to the taste of the average consumer at Walmart ("moar basssss!!!"). But apply the oratory1990 corrections (from Reddit) and they sound like some nearly-flawless high end devices. The corrections are based on precise lab measurements of the headphones, and basically revert some of their flaws via digital processing.

The future is DSP.

Thanks for the tip. I also have the Sonys. Anyone who thinks they sound great needs a hearing test. Not a patch on my 2 favourites, Sennheiser HD-25 (or any €100+ Sennheiser for that matter) and Beyer Dynamic DT-990 Pro (great home listening and mixing headphone). Even after tuning the Sonys to correct their flaws they still sound tiring. Will check out the settings you recommend.

The DT-990 are not bad. The treble is a little overemphasized. The easy bass is also a bit emphasized, but then they give up on the deep bass (start dropping below 50 Hz). Still good headphones, two classes above the uncorrected Sony NC.

With proper corrections based on objective measurements, any headphones can sound neutral and balanced.

What you're hearing in the DT-990 is the open back. I'm not sure on your assessment regarding any headphone. you'll never get the noise cancelling ones sounding good because there are 2 processes affecting the sound. Also the hardware itself needs to be capable.

> What you're hearing in the DT-990 is the open back.

That's just an audiophile meme, there's no reality to it.

> you'll never get the noise cancelling ones sounding good because there are 2 processes affecting the sound

That's so wrong I'm not even sure where to begin refuting it.

Seems like you're picking a lot of audiophile mythology along the way.

Good luck with this if you want state of the art in noise canceling

I have a pair of Bose QC20s which are (or were, when I bought them) state of the art for noise canceling, and have a 3.5mm headphone jack. No app required and they even work as normal wired headphones if the battery goes flat.

Same with the Sony WH1000 xm3. The only thing missing when working wired is the microphone, but I basically never use that anyway.

The problem with the wire, at least the provided one, is that it's pretty stiff so it picks up a lot of noise and the plug doesn't lock to the headphone side so I'm not sure how well it would hold during prolonged usage. But the plug is standard, so at least the cable can be changed easily.

This is a good point. Last I looked at the reviews, those were still state of the art for noise cancelling, if only because wired in-ears also have nice sound isolation. I should dust mine off...

Have there been large advances in noise cancelling since 3.5mm jacks started to disappear?

Maybe not.

But if you want to buy headphones today with NC, most of them will be wireless.

I’ve had the best heat headphones Bose has to offer in the Quiet Comfort series and to me this “state of the art noise cancellation” sounds like artefact- and distortion-inducing noise.

I’ve returned them and replaced them with much better, naturally damping, closed head-phones. And the audio is so much better, at a fraction of the cost.

Noise cancellation in the hifi-space is just snake oil, and I’m not having it.

Does... does anyone actually think noise-cancelling is for increasing audio quality? I always thought it was just for handling obnoxiously noisy environments, like airplanes, screaming children, etc.

Aside, but noise cancelling (at least what's currently on the market) doesn't really do much for screaming children. It only handles relatively constant noise well, ideally low/mid-frequency constant noise. Great at silencing stuff like airplane engines, wind, HVAC hum, freeway rumble, etc. But not very effective for people talking, crying babies, car horns, ambulance sirens, slamming doors, etc.

Interesting. I thought there was at least good noise cancelling for shooting/hunting.

That’s an entirely different kind of noise cancellation than you find in most “regular” headsets.

It just blocks/reverses sudden sharp, loud noises (shots). It will let normal speech and such (and pretty much everything else) right through.

> Does... does anyone actually think noise-cancelling is for increasing audio quality?

No, but noise cancelling headsets are often sold as premium headsets, with the obvious implication that they are to have high sound-quality. And quite often, they don’t.

No one who's thinking through how it works, which is by picking up the ambient noise and then modifying the output to include the inverse on top of whatever you're listening to.

Noise cancelling works quite well on planes.

It's not for hi-fi. Livable-fi in combination with noise cancellation is a bonus. The headphones are for noise cancellation, not hi-fi.

(These cans are usually not too bad with noise cancellation turned off. But when you turn it on, it's because noise cancellation is what you want.)

I use both wired and wireless. Each has its own tradeoffs.

usability and portability are what makes BT headphones great. Which BD or Shure gives me 10x the audio-performance while still being able to be used without cables (optionally)?

By portability I mean it can be used anywhere, with any equipment.

There’s still lots of places you won’t find Bluetooth, but there’s very few places you won’t find a connector for a 3.5mm jack.

That's fine and my BT sennheiser still has a 3.5mm jack. Presumably so do most/all BT headphones?

Except of course smartphones

I mean you can't really avoid it. It's pushed on to you and theres no clear understanding about how tied the headphones are until you buy it.

The WH-1000MX are very good headphones, but sony gonna shit the bed. (PSN anyone)

They're a company that makes a lot of decisions from the viewpoint of participants in a high-trust society like Japan. Many times, those viewpoints don't translate well to other markets.

That trust is hugely misplaced. They frequently make terrible decisions that negatively affect others.

- Them being hugely defensive about the fan backlash over Tlou2 https://www.altchar.com/game-news/sony-contacts-website-over... - They've removed early release credentials from reviewers who give sour reviews - The shit return policy for the digital only games - The way they are trying to push digital only

etc. I realize Sony isn't the only one doing this but with every iteration it feels like they are trying to be as crap as possible.

I don't know if it's high trust as much as it's authoritarian. You do what you're told by the company and that's that.

Hmmm....well, I'm at least aware of the issue now based on this conversation and will definitely at least try to determine whether it applies to any of my future purchases.

You have to do prior research. Bose don't tell you on the box that the headphones are bricked until you connect it to the app to do an update before it will allow you to connect it as a normal bluetooth device.

> I'm thinking / hoping it's sufficient to simply avoid headphones that require an app.

I'd hope so - as far as I know there's no way for a Bluetooth headset device to get internet access via the thing it's paired with. It's getting harder and harder to be confident about this kind of thing, though.