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Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by leetrout on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:30AM (#23870852)
Strong statement: dumb kids are better than dead kids.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by flatline on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:38AM (#23870965)
I'd say that's a false dichotomy. Lots of kids won't have access to a safe environment during the day without school. There will be no visibility for those suffering abuse. Physical abuse will be worse with a kid at home with an abusive parent all day, under stress. There will be less access to food for many children. The virus holds the potential of devastating effects on school children and their families if kids go back. We don't have any good way of quantifying the trade-offs. With everything else, we've been running large-scale social experiments to see what works to keep rates at a level the hospitals can manage. I don't see why we shouldn't do the same with schools: let them re-open on a restricted basis, attempt to cater to those most in need, and see what happens.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by leetrout on Friday July 17, 2020 @11:54AM (#23871866)
I 100% support your view IF they get smarter about protecting teachers and staff (masks, at a minimum). I would love to buy my wife a fogger so she could be sure her room was disinfected properly at the end of every day. Of course they are sold out and it's likely someone would complain about that, too.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by flatline on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:34PM (#23873859)
Our state (NM) has proposed mask wearing, social distancing, isolation by classroom, and alternating schedules to achieve 50% capacity. Yet still they may not open. At the same time, teachers don’t generally get much support financial or otherwise, school is such a messy endeavor already I can understand the hesitation to move forward with any plan.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by dv_dt on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:20PM (#23874363)
I have relatives where they live, the school plan is required mask wearing in hallways, but not in classrooms. This seems like madness.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by nickysielicki on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:46AM (#23871071)
There are 74 million children <18 in the US. [1]

CDC says that 1.7% of COVID cases belong to children. [2]

Among children, CDC says 1.8% of cases required hospitalization. [2]

    >>> 74000000*0.017*0.018 < 25000
    True
A dumb kid is better than a dead kid, I agree. But are 74M dumber kids worth less than 25000 ICU visits in the entire country?

[1]: https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/number-of-children

[2]: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6914e4.htm

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by justinlink on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:45PM (#23874654)
The hospitalization numbers show the majority of them were under 1 year of age, who would not be attending school. This according to your link [2]

>> Among 95 children aged <1 year with known hospitalization status, 59 (62%) were hospitalized, including five who were admitted to an ICU. The percentage of patients hospitalized among those aged 1–17 years was lower (estimated range = 4.1%–14%)

And of course the number of children infected would be much lower than "all 74 million".

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by gilbetron on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:12PM (#23875623)
Your math is wrong. First, there are 56M students in the US (5-18 year olds, pretty much). Second, while you quoted the % of cases that belong to children, that is the wrong stat. You want the number of kids that would ever get COVID, which is probably all of them, although there is evidence that 20-50% of people have some sort of resistance. So, for worse case estimates, if all students get covid, then 56M * 0.018 = about 1M kids hospitalized. However, CDC also has evidence that there are 5-10x the number of cases in general out there. So if it is 10x, then it is 100,000 kids hospitalized because the hospitalization rate is commensurately lower. Still not a good number.

If we look at mortality, it is better. The current estimate for IFR in kids is about 1 in 300,000. That gives about 220 estimated deaths if every school age kid gets Covid. Cars kill more kids per year driving to school.

This is all horrendously tough to decide on, but we need to use the best data we can and understand the dangers and comparisons to other dangers.

Finally, kids are going to spread it anyway, so I think kids getting it is really a non-issue, except for the very vulnerable.

Staff/teachers are another concern. An even worse concern is people at kids' homes. That's the really tough part.

You need the Infection Fatality rate for mortality.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by rgbrenner on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:53AM (#23871167)
1.7% while schools are closed.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by nickysielicki on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:58AM (#23871228)
The numbers in the CDC article are up until just April 2, 2020. Two weeks prior (incubation period) puts the latest case data in mid March, prior to when the lockdown started to be rolled out.

Granted, the situation has become a lot worse since then. It's still a good glance at how the virus spread before any measures were put in place. Especially for relative figures of how COVID behaves differently across age.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by nickysielicki on Saturday July 18, 2020 @06:01PM (#23885209)
I just woke up when I wrote this. The math makes no sense. Please disregard this stupid comment.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by asadkn on Friday July 17, 2020 @04:35PM (#23875206)
But those are tunnel vision stats only considering one variable.

It's the parents that will be at risk.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by sixothree on Friday July 17, 2020 @12:45PM (#23872480)
There are plenty of examples of distance learning working well. Assuming it is a failure seems willfully blind to me.

This spring we rushed into something unexpected. We've had time to improve. But it seems that instead of focusing on improvements people are focused on their agenda.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by cameronbrown on Friday July 17, 2020 @04:10PM (#23874929)
Kids don't learn like adults. They can't replace teachers and peers with computers, not permanently.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by doopy-loopy2 on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:34AM (#23870905)
Deaths in children are essentially 0
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by ceejayoz on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:36AM (#23870932)
The mortality rate in children would leave us with something like 10k dead kids country-wide if the virus is permitted to spread to everyone.

Mortality isn't the only issue, either. We're seeing plenty of signs some folks survive, but with long-term health impacts.

(An overwhelmed medical system will kill vulnerable kids in non-COVID ways, too. Mortality of things like car accidents and asthma attacks and suicide go up if the ICUs are full.)

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by Pinguinsan on Friday July 17, 2020 @11:40PM (#23878700)
How many kids have long term effects?
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by ceejayoz on Saturday July 18, 2020 @09:47AM (#23881366)
I don’t think we know that yet.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by devalgo on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:38AM (#23870967)
It's not 0 and putting every kid in the country into a worst case scenario location for spread of the disease you are running an evil experiment.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by Phillips126 on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:37AM (#23870956)
I partly believe this is because thus far kids have been mostly shielded - in my experience anyway. Schools and businesses (daycare, etc) closed as the virus gained traction. Now we are opening back up and throwing the kids headfirst into an uncertain future. It is worrisome to say the least.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by dragontamer on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:29PM (#23874474)
My niece was born with a defective kidney. Her chances of dialysis grows with every infection... and COVID19 has been shown to cause long-term damage to kidneys and livers.

I'd expect my niece to survive COVID19 if she got it. But I'd also expect her to get significant kidney damage and possibly dialysis as a result. Every UTI she gets results in an emergency room visit under normal circumstances. We've been lucky enough that she hasn't had anything this year, but... she's definitely not someone we'd want to see COVID19 infect.

Not everyone's kids are 100% healthy out there. Keep that in mind. There are mutations out there that are completely silent and hidden, and we try to keep these little facts inside the family.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by doopy-loopy2 on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:40PM (#23874597)
Then she can stay home - 99.99% of children wont have issues.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by dragontamer on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:53PM (#23874743)
You're grossly underestimating the prevalence of birth defects that lead to health issues in children.

And adults for that matter. (Any teacher who has a similar immuno-comrpomised situation, or knows of someone similarly immuno-compromised is at risk).

------------

In any case, I "don't worry" about the potential death of my niece at all. What I care about are the long term health effects on her and her life. And for the long-term health effects of other children too.

This disease has been shown to ravage and disable athletes: destroying their lung function even when they survive. Deaths are hardly endgame: long-term chronic illnesses are still a problem to try to minimize.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by amanaplanacanal on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:03PM (#23875524)
I have read that birth defects of one sort or another are 6% of live births. I have no idea what percentage of those lead to ongoing health issues.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by yboris on Friday July 17, 2020 @12:49PM (#23872545)
Children are some of the best disease vectors. In many schools, they easily come in contact with 100 other children.

When the child is sick with a disease, they bring it home. Now the parents are exposed.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by doopy-loopy2 on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:41PM (#23874607)
This has actually not shown to be true.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by MisterBastahrd on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:52PM (#23874044)
Today I learned that children live on their own and never interact with adults away from school.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by ars on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:20PM (#23874362)
Maybe we should do that - big boarding houses, get all those kids infected, then they are immune and we can ship them to school :)

/s if that wasn't obvious - but with a small element of truth.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by ericbarnes on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:41AM (#23871004)
even if it's zero they will bring it home to parents/grandparents where it's much greater than 0.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by hellofunk on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:36AM (#23870929)
Which is not relevant. This is not an issue regarding the health of the children as much as it is the health of the teachers.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by dx87 on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:42AM (#23871022)
It's entirely relevant to the parent comment who was specifically talking about kids dying from being sent back to school.

> Strong statement: dumb kids are better than dead kids.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by leetrout on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:39AM (#23870976)
YES! I don't want my wife sacrificed by an asymptomatic kid carrying it to class
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by nickysielicki on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:52AM (#23871137)
In spite of the common idea that schools and young children are germ factories that make adults sick, there's a recent article from the American Academy of Pediatrics that shows children are very rarely the index case for COVID. It's much more likely that she would give it to them, than that they would give it to her.

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2020/07...

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by ceejayoz on Friday July 17, 2020 @11:14AM (#23871407)
"Children aren't typically the family index case during lockdown" doesn't really tell us much about non-lockdown spread.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by hellofunk on Friday July 17, 2020 @12:41PM (#23872430)
But all the evidence from European countries tells us a lot about non-lockdown spread following a proper lockdown.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by alistairSH on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:30PM (#23874478)
...proper lockdown...

Which the US refuses to do.

It's like we're the kid in school who refused to do their work, then has a tempter-tantrum because they have to forgo recess. And much of the EU (and Taiwan, Singapore, HK, etc) are the nerdy kid who finished early and now get to spend the afternoon doing something fun.

Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by hellofunk on Sunday July 19, 2020 @08:55AM (#23889008)
Excellent analogy, actually.
Re:Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at... by ceejayoz on Friday July 17, 2020 @01:36PM (#23873185)
Sure, but right now, we've got the Georgia governor suing Atlanta to forbid a "proper" lockdown and masking, and an anti-masking political movement.

"It doesn't spread in European schools" doesn't really help us very much in evaluating what'll happen in America right now.