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Re:ProcMon for Linux by TimTheTinker on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:43AM (#23867812)
I'm just waiting for Microsoft to invert WSL into LSW.

Specifically, I hope they release their own branded Linux distro, built on Ubuntu/Debian, with an optional KVM-hosted NT kernel for Windows syscall support. Maybe call it Windows NC (for Next Century).

I'll probably leave MacOS behind at that point on my work machine, especially if they create a display-PS compositing window manager that's anywhere as good as MacOS's.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by tim-- on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:20AM (#23868035)
They (Microsoft) already have a Linux distribution. Azure Cloud Switch[0].

It does remind me of the old Microsoft Linux joke (http://www.mslinux.org/) of the early 2000's, which has aged more poorly then a younger me would have thought.

[0] https://azure.microsoft.com/en-au/blog/microsoft-showcases-t...

Re:ProcMon for Linux by app4soft on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:29AM (#23868098)
> It does remind me of the old Microsoft Linux joke (http://www.mslinux.org/) of the early 2000's, which has aged more poorly then a younger me would have thought.

    "I don't remember agreeing to that."
    -- Janet Reno
Re:ProcMon for Linux by bbarnett on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:20AM (#23869374)
http://geraldholmes.freeyellow.com/

(I found this immensely amusing 20 years ago, and mirrored/restored this a decade ago, finding images from multiple wayback snapshots... )

http://l8r.net/geraldholmes.freeyellow.com/

Re:ProcMon for Linux by svntid on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:53AM (#23868234)
lmao

MS Linux to have Start Button

Microsoft is working hard to incorporate the well known "Start" button from the Windows Platform into X Windows' Gnome interface. "We just can't figure out how the hell to get that darn foot out of there! The damn thing is like stuck." The team will have this feature ready by product launch.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by pjmlp on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:10AM (#23868702)
Two actually, Azure Sphere also runs a customized version of Linux.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by isignal on Friday July 17, 2020 @01:27PM (#23873050)
That looks like an OS for switches for the SDN world, not a regular Linux distro?
Re:ProcMon for Linux by da_chicken on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:26AM (#23868081)
Microsoft still only has a few primary applications:

SQL Server (already converted) MS Office suite (including Project and Visio) and Sharepoint Exchange (for Outlook's best features) ActiveDirectory (scalable auth + DNS + client management is still hard to beat, but MDMs are catching up)

Beyond that, all they really have is an open source platform (.Net), and a few open source projects (VS Code, PowerShell), and Visual Studio. Oh, and GitHub, I suppose.

Microsoft will not release their version of Linux for sale. They're going to try to make it a high-availability Azure-only service. They're still chasing Apple's and Google's services-only architecture and Amazon's cloud-dominance strategy. Windows will become their legacy server and user client product.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by l0b0 on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:00AM (#23869590)
First we'd need a FOSS window/desktop manager replicating the Windows experience. It would gobble down the market share of existing FOSS WMs/DMs in an instant. Basically any decent Windows experience ­— 2000, XP, 7 or 10 — would be far ahead of the current big players for the 99% use case. For example, it's 2020 and I could list at least half a dozen graphics glitches I've had on Ubuntu 20.04 so far. On recent Windows installations, no graphics glitches I can think of, certainly none that persisted.

Second, MS would need to port some sort of compatibility layer, which would probably be 10000 person-years to achieve anything like the backward compatibility they currently support.

Third … well, that would be it. The vast majority of non-techies would be ecstatic to find they can upgrade for free for ever, their software would just keep running, and hardware would work basically from day one (because the companies developing cutting edge hardware Windows would pivot their driver development) until the end of time (because FOSS drivers, while slower to appear for most hardware, are supported essentially forever).

Re:ProcMon for Linux by skinkestek on Friday July 17, 2020 @10:09AM (#23870612)
> Basically any decent Windows experience — 2000, XP, 7 or 10 — would be far ahead of the current big players for the 99% use case.

I see more and more people - and not just hardcore devs - using Linux.

For me, Linux has been a better desktop experience since around 2005 sometime: faster, easier to configure to my exact liking, easier to install, less hassle to maintain. (Except the time when KDE 4 was new and Ubuntu changed to Unity.)

For a long time I even though it was just a matter of time before everyone would realize but now I have realized that people are just different. Some people actually like Mac and Windows. Some people are driven mad by inconsistencies in my favorite DE (KDE) that I cannot even spot after someone tried to point them out. I however can't stand CMD-tab on Mac but Mac users - like me with the alignment issues on KDE - cannot see how it can be a problem.

Summary: it is not like any of them are way ahead in general. I see more and more people using Linux and expect numbers to rise a few percentage points more.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by nickjj on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:46AM (#23869891)
> it's 2020 and I could list at least half a dozen graphics glitches I've had on Ubuntu 20.04 so far

It depends on what desktop environment / window manager you use.

I don't notice too many weird issues when I run i3 and bsp on my Linux laptop. I think the nice thing about a tiled window manager is if you go down this route, you often hand select a bunch of small components that do 1 thing very well. Even going as far as evaluating and picking a specific compositor (or maybe not even using one at all).

You are right tho about Windows. Its UI is very stable and buttery smooth for actions like moving and resizing windows. It has a level of polish that out of the box DEs on Linux usually don't have.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by raghava on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:47AM (#23869899)
Maybe they'll "borrow ideas" or "get inspired" by things like LinuxFx etc.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/linuxfxdevil/

https://b00merang.weebly.com/windows-10.html

Leveraging the FOSS work and cutting down on maintenance costs, and focus that only for LSW, to guarantee the functioning of that abstraction layer, and leave the harder parts (hardware support, security etc) onto public to pick up - at the cost of a few coupons, t-shirts, coffee-mugs etc thrown at them via "hackathons". (And even perpetuate the "passion for software" hence "public github contributions". May be give a slightly higher tier github subscription for free, they've bought that org anyway. And people are anyway suckers for Internet points)

Re:ProcMon for Linux by blacksmith_tb on Friday July 17, 2020 @12:22PM (#23872203)
Glitching graphics are annoying obviously, but as someone who uses macOS, Ubuntu (Gnome) and Win 10 all quite a bit, I find small UI inconsistencies to be extremely frustrating in both Win 10 and Ubuntu. On macOS, it's 90% likely (not perfect even there) that cmd-w will close a window, and cmd-q will quit an application. On the other two, nothing is certain - I guess alt-F4 on Win 10 is fairly reliable, but an awkward combo, on Ubuntu, it's pretty much different for everything. Personally I'd prefer if the OS enforced that, and required devs to do extra work to change the standard open-close-quit keybindings.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by anon73044 on Friday July 17, 2020 @09:38AM (#23870323)
>First we'd need a FOSS window/desktop manager replicating the Windows experience. It would gobble down the market share of existing FOSS WMs/DMs in an instant.

ReactOS has been a thing for 20 years now and it just isn't that popular.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by pjmlp on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:21AM (#23868757)
Actually Microsoft had one of the best UNIXes for PC, Xenix, they sold it to SCO, when they thought it wasn't really much going to happen with it.

Had it not been for FOSS UNIX clones, they were probably right.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by robaato on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:58AM (#23868947)
Worked at Logica in the '80s when they had were engaged by Microsoft to port Xenix to other platforms. So played with it a little at the time.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by pjmlp on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:18AM (#23869364)
For me it was my introduction to UNIX, the teacher would take a PC tower with Xenix into the room, each student group would prepare their UNIX exercises in MS-DOS as good as we could, and then we had a time slot to make them work on the tower.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by xvilka on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:59AM (#23868950)
You can always use free and open-source ReactOS [1] inside the QubesOS [2] Linux as a virtual domain [3][4].

[1] https://www.reactos.org

[2] https://www.qubes-os.org

[3] https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2809

[4] https://reactos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16480

Re:ProcMon for Linux by Ciantic on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:37AM (#23869458)
I've been hoping for Microsoft branded Linux distro too.

I just don't like Windows anymore. So much of the modern development tools are Linux only, and depends on shell scripts. Running the WSL is not ideal either, even though it helps a lot.

Only thing keeping me from switching directly to Linux is the bad memories with the various Linux Desktops I tried in the early 2000s. Clipboard didn't work, font smoothing was very inconsistent, the fight with the (GPU especially) drivers, simple windowing animations was jerky, browser was always slower (e.g. scrolling on web sites, and videos).

Re:ProcMon for Linux by ahofmann on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:55AM (#23869563)
You complain about problems you experienced 20 years ago. Maybe you should try again in 2020?
Re:ProcMon for Linux by coreblocks on Friday July 17, 2020 @01:43PM (#23873268)
Still the same problems after 20 years tbh...
Re:ProcMon for Linux by franga2000 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @06:02AM (#23880325)
All of those, except font smoothing and clipboard issues, I've recently only experienced under Nvidia's proprietary drivers. Intel's i915 and AMD's amdgpu drivers seem to work without issues.

Font smoothing is occasionally inconsistent between modern and ancient apps, but the same happens on Win. As for the clipboard, I've only seen clipboard issues on my ancient Arch install, which I'm surprised even boots up at this point.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by sandworm101 on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:22AM (#23869388)
>> their own branded Linux distro

As a multi-decade linux user, the thought of a Microsoft distro still makes my stomach churn. The grand-daddy of software copyright enforcement branding the paragon of f/oss... it is just wrong.

But I bet it wouldn't last. MS's institutional inertia would soon see the thing fork away from linux, becoming something else. Something like android. Something more horrible.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by cjohansson on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:07AM (#23869631)
Ubuntu is better in almost every way than Windows and macOS, in my opinion. Windows is slow, buggy, require constant updates that often include regression-bugs
Re:ProcMon for Linux by me551ah on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:20AM (#23868031)
I wonder what it is that you can't do with WSL for which you need LSW?
Re:ProcMon for Linux by da_chicken on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:28AM (#23868096)
Presumably, work with the object paradigm instead of the character stream paradigm. That's the lure of PowerShell.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by enedil on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:52AM (#23868227)
You can use PowerShell on Linux, what's the problem?
Re:ProcMon for Linux by perakojotgenije on Friday July 17, 2020 @04:18AM (#23868364)
That's called linux with windows in virtualbox :-)
Re:ProcMon for Linux by the8472 on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:27AM (#23868798)
Virtualbox doesn't have looking glass.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by krisgenre on Friday July 17, 2020 @08:54AM (#23869954)
Who knows they might even acquire Canonical.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by fractal618 on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:02AM (#23867926)
More likely it would be built on Clear Linux
Re:ProcMon for Linux by tim-- on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:48AM (#23868207)
Didn't they help Attachmate buy Novell (SUSE)?

Microsoft had a lot of support for SUSE-specific products around that time, like SLES Support in System Center (https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/...)

[dead]
Re:ProcMon for Linux by Iolaum on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:50AM (#23867855)
For all the hate it gets, the GPL protects from exactly that. Microsoft would need to publish all changes in the copyleft components of the shipped OS.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by diffeomorphism on Friday July 17, 2020 @04:18AM (#23868360)
Which is why you add non-copyleft components and make them not really optional. Like for instance their directX-based graphics and cuda support.

Sure, the "core" stuff is protected and you could do without the optional things for now. But how about when for example your favorite machine learning software says "we support linux, but cuda is only supported under WSL", similarly for graphics, rendering etc. .

Re:ProcMon for Linux by mrighele on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:40AM (#23868871)
Sounds a lot what Google is doing with Android (open source) and Play Services (not). They made on purpose harder and harder the use the former without the latter.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by hawski on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:56AM (#23867891)
Most of the components would be outside of kernel, so it would not be GPL.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by thesuperbigfrog on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:26AM (#23868077)
The majority of Linux distributions including Debian and Ubuntu have a GNU userland which is GPL licensed.

The notable exceptions are Android and some distributions and toolkits that target embedded systems such as OpenWRT

Linux without GNU is very far from a desktop Linux distribution experience that most users would recognize.

Re:ProcMon for Linux by Someone on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:58AM (#23868263)
I don’t think counting distributions is the best metric. The majority of hamburger makers are individuals barbecuing at home, but McDonald’s dwarfs them.

Counting users, I guess Android has over 50% of them.

Counting installations (probably one of the fairer methods), I still would think Android has over 50% of Linux installations. Google gives me numbers in the million for the number of Google and Amazon servers, not always for recent years, but I guess they won’t have a hundred million servers combined.

(And of course, there’s the philosophical discussion whether Android is a Linux distribution, or something that uses a Linux)

Re:ProcMon for Linux by mcpherrinm on Friday July 17, 2020 @04:13AM (#23868336)
There's also tons of embedded Linux devices, from your TV, your car, your fridge, home networking equipment... I don't know if theres enough of them to outweigh the massive number of phones in the world, but I think it's enough that Android wouldn't cross 50%, at least in north america.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by da_chicken on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:29AM (#23868100)
Only if they distribute it to third parties. If they make it cloud-only and sell access to it but not installs for it, they're fine.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by pjmlp on Friday July 17, 2020 @05:23AM (#23868772)
Re:ProcMon for Linux by takeda on Friday July 17, 2020 @02:50AM (#23867857)
That's what WSL is though. LSW is unlikely.
Re:ProcMon for Linux by kristiandupont on Friday July 17, 2020 @03:07AM (#23867954)
What do you mean with this? GP is saying they wish for something that, as far as we know, MS isn't even considering.