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Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by varbhat on Thursday July 16, 2020 @07:15AM (#23857751)
What is the solution though? I believe that the main reason for these problems are population explosion.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by perfunctory on Thursday July 16, 2020 @07:20AM (#23857786)
Everybody knows what the solution is. There is no lack of solutions. There is a lack of courage to implement them.

While population may be a concern, it's not the main problem.

> The richest 10% of people in the world are responsible for around 50% of global emissions

https://oi-files-d8-prod.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-pub...

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by ArkVark on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:35AM (#23858784)
The top 10% is people who earn over $18,000/year, which probably includes most of HackerNews readers:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/business/global...

Keep in mind that this richest 10% contribute the majority of humanity's value-added commerce and production, cultural output, and scientific output.

For example, Romania has an equal scientific output to Pakistan: https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs

Despite Pakistan being 212 million people vs Romania 19 million. Pakistan emits 178mt of Co2, vs Romania 79mt (2016). Pakistan's CO2 output is 2.2x greater, but their total GDP is only 1.31x bigger.

When you look at emissions against output, its clear that the West and East Asia are substantially more efficient than other regions on the planet.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by karmakaze on Thursday July 16, 2020 @10:13AM (#23859164)
Efficiency is something I can get behind, but of what? Forgetting dollars and cents for a moment, what if we measured the health and happiness of a population. Using those measures times the population would be the plus side with environmental impact on the minus. This only works for a closed system and import/export and sharing of scientific results plays a part.

I guess my point is if Pakistan were able to keep their population healthy and happy with less GDP per capita, scientific input or output, and less environmental impact per capita than Romania, I'd say they were doing alright.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by selimthegrim on Thursday July 16, 2020 @10:35AM (#23859364)
I don’t know if Pakistan is quite comparable with Romania on the healthy and happy metrics, but the real efficiency comparison is between Pakistani and Indian Punjabs on groundwater depletion and tube wells. Indian Punjab may be better at getting the groundwater out and irrigation intensity but at what cost to the aquifer? (This is not saying Pak doesn’t need to move away from wasteful canals and build water storage for rain - they do)
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by karmakaze on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:40AM (#23860096)
I was only using Pakistan and Romania since they were in the original example. The important bit was to not optimize a proxy for a thing without recognizing that it's a proxy and may lead to undesirable conclusions or actions.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by perfunctory on Thursday July 16, 2020 @10:00AM (#23859053)
What is your point? Yes, HackerNews readers, including you and me, bear extra responsibility.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by ArkVark on Thursday July 16, 2020 @10:07AM (#23859117)
The point is that instead of looking to reduce the population of the West and East Asia, which will have an impact on humanity's economic, cultural, scientific output, we should look at reducing populations (though education and family planning for women) in less-productive areas.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by perfunctory on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:33PM (#23860641)
Look, even if all countries except of say US suddenly magically disappear tomorrow, the planet will still keep warming up. Even if you reduce the world population to whatever your acceptable level is, you still need to build zero carbon infrastructure/industry for the people that remain. Net zero per person is net zero per person. Doesn't matter how many people there are. And right now, that building is not happening. Or at least not fast enough.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by xiphias2 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @07:30AM (#23857855)
With Tesla being one of the best investments of the last decade (after Bitcoin and NVidia maybe), large investors have to take CO2 emissions seriously. People are already paying extra money for sustainability, and in the future it will be the only rational business decision as well.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by Angostura on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:26AM (#23858264)
The problem is that the solutions are mildly inconvenient, and we can't have that, in the face of an existential threat.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by aboringusername on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:34AM (#23858320)
How is the population not the "main problem" here?

Take a look at the locust, and how in [1], they say:

"Cheke’s team is recommending a fungus called Metarhizium anisopliae, which kills a locust by growing inside its body."

Typically, when a population becomes unsustainable, as humans are because of their immense requirements over vast decades, we tend to find a way to 'control' that population. Typically, this is by killing them.

Yet, because we have the capability to rationalize we understand vast swarms of locusts are terrible yet vast swarms of humans are just something we have to accept. The idea that we need to kill billions of humans would be unfathomable, yet, reducing our numbers will be the only way to make life on earth sustainable - for all living things. This is something Sir David Attenborough also agrees with [2]. This planet is not, was not and will never be capable of sustaining 8 billion healthy, prosperous humans with fair and equal access to food, water and shelter.

We need to kill, or in some way reduce the number of humans on this planet. Anything else is a gigantic waste of time and will only serve as a distraction and way to make us feel better that we can somehow overcome this earth threatening disease called "human kind". Because of our constant encroachment into nature, we are pushing animals to their limits, which is how great pandemics are developing and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future (e.g wet markets).

Coronavirus is not the worst pandemic we're dealing with right now.

Humankind is.

And whilst we're constantly taking space away from nature, nature will fight back and take away ourselves.

We are the worst problem this planet has.

[1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00725-x

[2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-45741482/sir...

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by totetsu on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:48AM (#23858930)
Well it looks like the Uyghurs didn't get their ticket to the future.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by hannob on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:19AM (#23858223)
I recommend reading this if the first thing that comes to mind is something about population: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/9/26/1635652...

As for what the solutions are: Reduce meat consumption, particularly beef, develop better meat/milk/cheese alternatives, replace fossil fuels, for the time that won't be completely possible fix methane leakage in fossil fuel production.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by Eric_WVGG on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:23AM (#23858248)
There is a pretty simple solution to the meat problem. Most of that methane comes from cows, and some seaweed thrown into their diet eliminates their methane emissions.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2018/11/23/1826/how-seaweed...

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by Valgrim on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:51AM (#23858448)
"Simple"

Over a billion cows are spread over the world. They eat over 10 billion kg of dry food each day. Estimating a 0.5% seaweed supplement, we're talking about 50 million kg of dry seaweed. Assuming a 90% water content, we're talking about 500 million kg of one particular type of seaweed that need to be harvested, dried and shipped all over the world.

Every single day.

And we have to be careful about not depleting natural resources, nutrients and destroying natural habitats.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that there's nothing simple about that.

Maybe instead we could find out why this type of seaweed reduces methane generation?

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by philipkglass on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:43PM (#23862337)
It's because the seaweed contains bromoform, which inhibits methanogenic reactions in bacteria:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/environment/feeding-seaweed...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5270371/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromoform

It would be easier to add small quantities of industrially produced bromoform to cattle feed than to cultivate enough seaweed to get the same effects. However, the sort of producers who cater to environmentally conscious meat consumers may want to be able to tout "seaweed dietary additive" rather than "bromoform dietary additive" in packaging and promotional material.

Also there may be regulatory barriers to adding pure bromoform. AFAIK there are few regulations on introducing new plants into cows' diet, but pure chemicals may be regulated. Even if the only reason to add certain plants is to add chemicals into their diet.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by the8472 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @10:21AM (#23881547)
> It would be easier to add small quantities of industrially produced bromoform to cattle feed than to cultivate enough seaweed to get the same effects.

If I recall correctly there are two issues with that a) bromoform itself is a GHG, you don't want to create more of it that gets released into the environment and use natural sources instead b) the researchers tried this and at least simple additives didn't have the same effect, perhaps it has something to do with how it gets released during digestion

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by philipkglass on Saturday July 18, 2020 @01:49PM (#23883196)
If you had a link confirming B, I would be interested. To the first point: more bromoform will also be released in the environment if we deliberately cultivate large quantities of the kelp that produce it. A quick search doesn't show it as a greenhouse gas. It can deplete stratospheric ozone, but it is very short lived in the atmosphere.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by the8472 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @02:40PM (#23883718)
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1071/AN15576 page 6 They're citing prior research showing declining efficiency of bromochloromethane additives "due to ruminal flow" while not observing that in their research using seaweed. But it's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison since one was an in vivo and the other an in vitro study. So I may have overstated the impact.

> A quick search doesn't show it as a greenhouse gas. It can deplete stratospheric ozone, but it is very short lived in the atmosphere.

Looks like you're right, I must have confused it with some other bromide.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by Eric_WVGG on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:02AM (#23858553)
Simple compared to getting people to change their eating habits, for sure.

“Maybe instead...” yes, the researches who came up with this are doing that, it’s their job.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by baq on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:26AM (#23858732)
changing people's eating habits in the west is super easy: tax undesirable products. price rises, demand drops. this also notably applies to everything else, e.g. gas/diesel, sugar, plastic.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by Beached on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:47AM (#23858915)
just stop subsidizing beef. people will shift to chicken and pork/ham.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by gridlockd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:22AM (#23858710)
Compared to current amounts of cultivation, that sounds like a lot, but that is only the seaweed that humans consume.

Mass-scale seaweed production has been thrown around as a method for sequestering CO2.

Methane itself could be sequestered as well.

Either way, I'm fine with a beef tax to cover some of those costs, but lower-income groups might. I'm not keen on forcing an inferior diet on them.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by andy_ppp on Saturday July 18, 2020 @09:44AM (#23881344)
I still wonder about cap and trade on meat, each human gets X steaks per year but they can sell their steaks on an exchange. Having the quota separate from the price would be about help people who don’t have much money quite a bit. It would also lead to higher meat quality; what would the point of buying McDonalds with a piece of your quota worth fifty bucks.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by ablation on Saturday July 18, 2020 @08:39AM (#23881013)
You can avoid eating beef without being "forced" an "inferior diet". In fact it would probably be better for people to NOT eat beef.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by gridlockd on Saturday July 18, 2020 @09:58AM (#23881416)
It is inferior by my standards, not yours. Your standards do not matter when it comes to my diet, and vice versa.

I am not forcing my standards on lower income people anyway, but supporting a tax that hurts them and not me seems wrong.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by hannob on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:31AM (#23858298)
This seaweed story comes up so often.

Every time I looked it up it seems this is based on some very small studies. As far as I know noone has ever implemented this at scale (if you know otherwise - please provide links) and is selling meat produced that way.

Look, I'm not against researching such stuff. But calling that "a pretty simple solution" before this has ever been tried out for real doesn't seem valid.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by Eric_WVGG on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:58AM (#23858519)
Simpler than convincing the globe to change their eating habits, certainly.

I don’t have any better idea than you how the science works out, and the supply chain thing sounds nontrivial, but that’s nothing compared to getting masses of people to change their habits.

We can’t talk red staters into take wearing masks for a few months, and next we are going to make them give up bbq?

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by germinalphrase on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:37AM (#23858807)
Or allow prices to rise and people will choose to eat less meat on their own.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by carapace on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:40AM (#23858358)
> I recommend reading this

Why? It also says that population is the problem, just that talking about it makes you sound like a nazi, so let's not talk about it.

Then it points out that educating women and "eat the rich" are the most effective ways to reduce environmental impact without explicitly talking about population.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by doitLP on Saturday July 18, 2020 @09:57AM (#23881409)
Top climate solutions ranked by amount of greenhouse gas they remove: https://www.drawdown.org/solutions/table-of-solutions

#1 is reduced food waste

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by cedex12 on Saturday July 18, 2020 @11:12AM (#23881904)
How trustworthy is this table?
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by carapace on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:34AM (#23858326)
One major part of the solution is applied ecology, such as Permaculture or Syntropic agriculture. We can grow all our own food (and even carbon-neutral alcohol fuel) in gardens in ecologically harmonious ways.

(The historical rule is: If your civilization destroys soil it fails.)

The population is leveling off and is projected to stabilize by 2100.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by gridlockd on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:12AM (#23858625)
> We can grow all our own food (and even carbon-neutral alcohol fuel) in gardens in ecologically harmonious ways.

[citation needed]

Not sure what kind of garden you are talking about, I like gardens to plant vegetables and such, but their caloric output is very low.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by carapace on Thursday July 16, 2020 @10:04PM (#23866204)
Look up "Permaculture" or "Syntropic agriculture". Basically you mimic Nature and intensify it.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by gridlockd on Friday July 17, 2020 @11:32AM (#23871613)
I'm broadly aware that this stuff exists, but where does it say that this can produce enough output to rival current methods?
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by carapace on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:13PM (#23876577)
I don't have a link handy, I'll try to find it again and post it, but there's an article or video about Ernst Gotsch, the founder of what he calls "Syntropic" farming, where it talks about how his farm produces the best cocoa in the world at 3x the crop of conventional farms of the same quality with no inputs.

It's important to remember that the modern mega-farms are only cost-effective due to massive subsidies. A typical modern farm loses something like a dollar an acre per year and would fail immediately without subsidies. They're not profitable.

While they are certainly highly efficient for a narrow range of species, they are physically incapable of producing the vast majority of food species at all.

Comparing an acre of modern farmland growing modern corn in the modern way with modern subsidies to an acre of a Permaculture or Syntropic food forest:

The modern farm will produce far more of that corn than the eco-farm. But it will require inputs: fertilizer, irrigation, and everything concerned with the farm machinery, etc., and only produce that corn. Everything else: water, land, machinery, people, gets used up or polluted by the process.

In contrast the acre of food forest might not produce any corn at all, or it may contain four or five or more species of it, as well as fruit and nut trees, bananas and plantain plants, climbing fruiting vines, berry bushes, root crops, flowers, cucurbits, bamboo, etc. resulting in dozens of different yields. It requires no inputs.

It's more labor intensive and cannot (yet) be automated. But it's fun, easy, profitable, and it produces the material needed to make more of itself, so it's scalable.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by gridlockd on Saturday July 18, 2020 @04:26AM (#23879968)
Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of it, I think grains are lowest-tier food and I would much prefer to eat the produce you describe.

However, grains are the staple food, not just in the US, but around the world. To my knowledge no other method than having fields of grains buffed with fertilizer comes close to its caloric output.

You're saying it requires "no inputs", but it actually requires a lot of land. The inputs you describe are plentiful, land is scarce.

If soil really does get used up as some scientists predict, we might naturally shift towards these kinds of farming, but we might also figure out a way to replenish the soil.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by carapace on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @03:52AM (#23984340)
Sorry, I missed your reply. You can still grow grain. This technology converts deserts and other land unsuitable to grain farming into food forests. It creates soil. Cf. "Greening the Desert". Cheers.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by xwdv on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:02AM (#23858102)
From the article, the solution is obvious, but no one has the courage to implement it.

An artificial virus, deadly and highly contagious, with long incubation periods, forcing people to stay home and sending high CO2 emission industries crumbling into bankruptcy. Look what something as weak as COVID has done in a short amount of time. Also make another virus that can spread through high methane emitting livestock and kills them quickly, and anyone who eats an infected animal.

At the same time if you create a vaccine against the virus, you can sell it to powerful and wealthy individuals on the black market for vast sums of money. There might be riots, but why contain it? Let it spread through the schools and churches.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by kilroy_jones on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:16AM (#23858193)
I'm going to agree this a solution, but I think we should probably tick through the first thousand or two more reasonable ones before we get to mass murder.
Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by xwdv on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:21AM (#23858233)
There is no time, a lot of the other solutions require people to willingly change their behaviors en masse.

But people don’t change. They have to be forced to changed.

Re:Methane rises to highest level on record by carapace on Thursday July 16, 2020 @08:45AM (#23858411)
"Release a deadly virus to save the world!"

You're talking like a character from a bad sci-fi movie. And I should know. I've been binge-watching MST3K for a week solid.