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Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by atonse on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @03:47PM (#23836833)
Excellent. The system worked this time. People challenged executive branch action through the judicial system and the executive branch backed down.

But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by nonce42 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:35PM (#23837485)
>The system worked this time.

I view the phrase "the system worked" as a red flag indicating that things went wrong in a way they shouldn't, not a positive thing. A successful outcome doesn't necessarily indicate things are fine.

A canonical example is the Space Shuttle boosters. The O-rings were supposed to block all the hot gases, but there was some gas leakage and erosion of the O-rings. Nothing bad happened and officials said this showed there was a sufficient safety factor. In other words, the system worked. They kept launching shuttles until an O-ring eroded all the way through and Challenger blew up. They should have recognized that erosion shouldn't have happened at all; successful launches despite erosion were an indication that things were dangerously wrong, not an indication that the system was working.

(I hope I haven't gone too far on a metaphorical tangent here.)

Reference: Feynman's report on Challenger: https://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/51-l/docs/roge...

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by gen220 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:02PM (#23837819)
As it turns out, there were in fact engineers who recognized that the O rings were eroding and that this was dangerous. They even tried to communicate this fact to the people with launch cancelling authority. But they weren’t able to communicate it effectively enough to prevent the launch.

Apparently, all of the engineers knew intuitively that the problem was real and critical, but weren’t able to communicate it to their superiors, who lacked the same intuitive grounding. They failed to visualize the data convincingly, and the launch went as planned.

It was an example of the system working, until people ignored the warnings about the O-rings. That decision to move on, rather than to investigate critically, was the moment when the system shifted from working to failing.

Edward Tufte wrote a really convincing treatment of this in “The Visual Design of Quantitative Information, and Envisioning Information“, to motivate the importance of proper visualizations.

You can read a blog with the visualizations here [1] but I really recommend the book!

[1] https://www.asktog.com/books/challengerExerpt.html

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by dcow on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:42PM (#23837560)
I think in this case, however, the system also worked as designed. O-rings aren’t designed to erode. The government, on the other hand, has designed power checks to prevent exactly what happened: a well meaning but ultimately idiotic decision from adversely impacting peoples’ lives in ways that weren’t initially accounted for. In no way am I giving credit to anyone here, just pointing out that the analogy doesn't quite hold.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by gen220 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:06PM (#23837875)
If I remember correctly, the problem was that O-rings were designed to not erode at particular humidities and temperatures, which were subtly but critically different from the launch conditions.

This was actually observed by engineers at the time, who tried (unsuccessfully) to raise the observation to their superiors. The launch went on anyway, and the rest is history.

This has more details, along with my cousin comment: https://people.rit.edu/wlrgsh/FINRobison.pdf

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by toby on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:36PM (#23838909)
"well-meaning"? Are we still talking about the international student deportation order?
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by andromeduck on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:38PM (#23837521)
It's called defense in depth. Not everything has to be all over nothing.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by protastus on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:54PM (#23837717)
The backup worked this time.

This is akin to a safety system taking over and restoring stability, despite a major component failure. From the outside, things "worked" but backups are designed for extraordinary and rare circumstances, not for continuous use.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by kabdib on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:03PM (#23837832)
Or a safety system, like an airbag.

Not something you want to be triggering as a matter of course or to be proud of having done so, ever.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by netsharc on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:35PM (#23838905)
Yeah I prefer the airbag analogy.

"Well, the driver was drunk, we couldn't get him to stop despite our attempts, he drove us into a ditch, but the airbags worked!"

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by avs733 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:56PM (#23839592)
government by normalization of deviance?
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by hongloumeng on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:08PM (#23837901)
I guess. But we've ramped up uncertainty, people are afraid, and people who have been considering coming to the US will now go elsewhere.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by nine_zeros on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @03:52PM (#23836906)
> But this should never have been an issue to begin with, think of all the unnecessary stress and anxiety this has caused for the hundreds of thousands of international students impacted by this.

More importantly, the long term damage is done. The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader. Prospective future students are likely going to be ultra careful before choosing this country.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by halfmatthalfcat on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:15PM (#23837236)
This was the event that broke the camel's back? No, we've been laughed at and ridiculed for the past three years. Add this to the pile.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by tanilama on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:39PM (#23837531)
Why are you getting downvoted?

Confidence is definitely a thing.

Most of the students probably don't appreciate this self-inflicted drama in the first place.

No one really wins here.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by cwkoss on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:29PM (#23837413)
And unfortunately it appears we will not get an opportunity to vote for a high competence leader in the November.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by ryanmarsh on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:01PM (#23837041)
loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader

The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by ptmcc on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:07PM (#23837126)
We've been testing these checks and balances a heck of a lot lately, and they haven't always worked.

And even when they do, the fear and confusion caused in the meantime in a case like this is devastating to many thousands of people.

It is not normal nor good for an administration to be floating so many terrible and illegal ideas so regularly.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by scarface74 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:01PM (#23837803)
Until the next judge -appointed by the President —gets to decide and rubber stamps his decision.

Depending on judges with lifetime appointments isn’t a good system.

Why could this decision be made in the first place by non elected officials? Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process?

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by vkou on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:04PM (#23837846)
> Why didn’t such a drastic decision have to be passed via the legislative process?

The legislature can stop pretty much any form of bad executive overreach, by passing a bill.

The problem is that (enough of) the legislature did not want to stop this.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by 8note on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:43PM (#23839488)
Is the US set up such that the executive can do anything they want unless the legislative branch has put in restrictions?

I'm not that familiar with the structure of the US government, but I thought it was the opposite, and the executive has an approve list of powers rather than a deny list

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by scarface74 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @07:58PM (#23839610)
There are laws and there are regulations. Laws are created by Congress and signed by the President.

Most of the time, laws are very vague and the specifics of the laws - the regulations - are written by government regulatory agencies. The president appoints heads of the regulatory agencies that are approved by the Senate (upper house).

Congress can pass a law that overrides a regulation or it can be struck down by court.

So the President by himself has limited power but he has a lot of influence over regulatory agencies based on who he appoints.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by scarface74 on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @05:09PM (#23837931)
That isn’t very reassuring. He shouldn’t have had the power to unilaterally make this decision in the first place. While the legislature might have not passed a law that overrode his decision. I doubt they would have passed a law saying it was permissible.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by atonse on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @10:24PM (#23840522)
The executive branch has the power to execute laws and regulations. I think what they're doing here is choosing to execute a law/regulation that they should've waived due to the pandemic.

That's why it's not necessarily an overreach, but instead just an inhumane choice to not take special circumstances into account when choosing to execute a particular regulation.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by nine_zeros on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:08PM (#23837139)
> The courts proved exactly the opposite. The system of checks and balances worked. I don't follow your assertion.

The courts worked as a balance. But they can only do as much as the laws allow. The tendency of the executive is heard loud and clear. No serious student would want to jeopardize their lives in an environment and society that displays xenophobia.

I cannot explain it much better than this https://themargins.substack.com/p/the-international-student-...

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:12PM (#23837189)
I'm not disputing that it's bad, but I'm not really convinced it's the death of American international student programs either. A student looking for a country with no xenophobia is bound to be disappointed no matter where they go. The article you referenced seems to largely agree with my perspective, noting that "there are still millions of people who’d do anything to come to this country".
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by HenryKissinger on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @03:53PM (#23836934)
The number of foreign students is at an all-time high.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by lioeters on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:00PM (#23837027)
According to a Forbes article:

> The number of international students enrolled in U.S. universities declined again in 2018-19, extending the slide in enrolled international students to a second year in a row.

> That’s one of the main takeaways from the 2019 Open Doors Report on International Educational Exchange, which was released today by the Institute of International Education (IIE) and the U.S. Department of State’s Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs.

From: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2019/11/18/inte...

---

However, the linked report starts out:

> The number of international students in the United States set an all-time high in the 2018/19 academic year, the fourth consecutive year with more than one million international students.

> The total number of international students, 1,095,299, is a 0.05 percent increase over last year, according to the 2019 Open Doors Report on International Educational Exchange.

From: https://www.iie.org/en/Why-IIE/Announcements/2019/11/Number-...

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by georgeek on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:08PM (#23837142)
The effect will only be seen in the future, smoothed over a few years.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by wikiwawa on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @03:57PM (#23836984)
Yes, in this case, probably the peak.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by nine_zeros on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @03:54PM (#23836944)
> The number of foreign students is at an all-time high.

Don't get me wrong but do you always look at historical numbers to predict the future?

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by genericone on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:50PM (#23837662)
I think you are being downvoted because... well, exactly what other methods did you have in mind? Using trend data to predict future data seems pretty run-of-the-mill to me.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by DoofusOfDeath on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @06:30PM (#23838845)
> The noise was heard loud and clear that America is only as competent as its leader.

Honest question because I'm not a student of world politics: what countries have had consistently better governance over the last 20 years?

Every time some possibility comes to mind, I quickly recall a reason to cross it off the list.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by jessaustin on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @11:43PM (#23841061)
Off the top of my head, I think of nations who have dealt effectively with the current health challenge: New Zealand, South Korea, Germany, etc.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by burfog on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:58AM (#23842135)
South Korea's leader was following orders from a cult leader. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Korean_political_sc...

Germany has a huge self-inflicted migrant crisis. New Zealand seems to be heading down that path.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by jessaustin on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:39AM (#23844300)
I love these wikipedia experts! Read your own link; Park is in prison. (Where the last five USA presidents should also be.)

The only Germans who worry about this so-called "migrant crisis" are those who make a living writing schadenfreude pieces for conservative American websites. You have been misled.

Besides, don't change the subject. We are talking about USA's massive failure. All three of these other nations have succeeded in dealing with this problem that has totally beaten us. Observing that they aren't sufficiently cruel to immigrants for your tastes doesn't change that fact.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by baron_harkonnen on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:51PM (#23837668)
I think it's more a case of the Trump administration momentarily forgetting the Harvard is basically a hedge fund that runs a college and that their revenue stream is not to be messed with.

If they added a clause that the rule only applied to colleges with an endowment of less than $1 billion it would continue along just fine.

Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by psychometry on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @04:54PM (#23837719)
Actually, in the case of Harvard it affected far more PhD students than tuition-paying undergrads. Also, dozens of universities, cities, and states signed on to this lawsuit. It has little to do with Harvard's bottom-line.
Re:U.S. backs down in fight with Harvard, MIT over student v... by jessaustin on Tuesday July 14, 2020 @11:46PM (#23841076)
Harvard's endowment was not built from undergraduate tuition. 20% of undergrads don't pay tuition, and half pay reduced tuition, anyway. [0] You're correct, though, that Harvard's actions in this situation have nothing to do with a "revenue stream". Occasionally Harvard does the right thing, simply because it's the right thing to do.

[0] https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid