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Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by JoeSmithson on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:42AM (#23745874)
The balance of importance between driver and constructor is quite unique in sport. A sufficiently good car can make an average driver competitive (e.g. Bottas), but also a sufficiently good driver can make an average car competitive (e.g. Schumacher).

Plus everyone involved is such a drama merchant (or crook!) that the season often plays out like a soap opera.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by wastedhours on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:47AM (#23745898)
After spending years trying to put myself in a position to work in the sport, now I mostly just follow F1 for the politics and gamesmanship more than the racing itself.

There are much more fun motorsports to watch, but rarely do they come so packaged with intriguing technical drama.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by C1sc0cat on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:49AM (#23746189)
A few years ago I did a spec Job application to RBR racing

I wasn't cheeky enough to mention the two DNF's (ran out of fuel) they had had the previous season, and how as a former Research Assistant / Experimental officer at a world leading hydro dynamics RnD org - I would have at least made sure the second one did not happen

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by sabas123 on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:35AM (#23746415)
How are you so sure that you would have succeeded when they didn't?
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by C1sc0cat on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:22AM (#23747116)
I would have identified the issue and put plans in place to make sure it didn't happen the second time - any idea how much a DNF costs a top F1 team?

I worked on Campus at Cranfield Uni (close to RB and Maclarren) At a tier 1 research organisation in hydrodynamics, there was one US lab that was working at our level.

I worked on research projects and managing out risk like this is a big aspect of the work. If the materials for a single run of an experiment cost as much as for a small flat you take great care not to fuckup or at least not to make the same mistake twice

I also did a niche specialised Vocational Course in thermofields basically to support military /aerospace.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by Enginerrrd on Monday July 06, 2020 @10:19AM (#23748139)
Were I an interviewer, I think I would have actually really liked that one. It demonstrates real understanding of how human mistakes get made and prevented.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by C1sc0cat on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:42PM (#23749682)
That was brought home to me, when I asked the guy that I shared an office why they used band new non rechargeable batteries for each run of a particular experiment - testing how to improve mixing for the chemical industry.

He commented that some of the runs cost 20k (about 10x my salary at the time) in chemicals to fill the tank (this was a full size 1:1 experiment) so using a brand new set every time made sense - and also the environmental cost of disposing of the several tons of chemicals was not trivial either.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by newsclues on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:49AM (#23746487)
Americans Cup (Sailing) has that similar appeal
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by pantalaimon on Monday July 06, 2020 @07:54AM (#23746934)
It's a pretty rare event in comparison though.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by newsclues on Monday July 06, 2020 @10:09AM (#23748000)
F1 races are less common than other car races. The limited, exclusivity of the peak of sport is part of the appeal for fans and competitors alike.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by wastedhours on Monday July 06, 2020 @11:18AM (#23748823)
Interesting though that compared with most individual series vs motorsport as a whole, F1 has more races (or at least, this season certainly would have done), and Liberty was rumoured to even be pushing for a 25 race calendar (nudging even closer to the BTCC calendar, and they do 3 per weekend...).

If the double-headers do well this year, I can see that being how they manage that many next year.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by newsclues on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:44PM (#23749709)
2019 F1 21 races vs NASCAR 36.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by wastedhours on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:04PM (#23749902)
Yeah, but Indycar was only something like 18, WEC 8, WRC 14, Blancpain 10. An F1 race isn't a rarity in itself compared with most other motorsports, even MotoGP was only scheduled for 20.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by otherme123 on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:56AM (#23745938)
The balance is probably around 90% the car and 10% the driver. In the years of RB dominance, a subpar driver like Webber almost got the championship. OTOH Alonso lost a decade in Ferrari and McLaren while being, tied with Hamilton, the best driver in the grid.

The 10% of what the driver adds to the mix is what makes Hamilton champion instead of Bottas.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by wiz21c on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:29AM (#23746101)
Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40 seconds lap, he's about than 0.7 seconds behind the best on average). And given the time it took to reach that, I'd say that being a competitive pilot may be just 10% of the victory, but those 10% are super tough to reach.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by emerongi on Monday July 06, 2020 @07:50AM (#23746895)
I've been doing a bit of karting lately and the difference between a 58s and a 59s lap is crazy. Super hard to shave that second off, but it's also so obvious that the guy doing 58s laps is way faster.

Last year there was a hobbyist race on my local track and the person who won it was a guy who mainly practices at home on his computer. I imagine a gokart simulation is close enough to the real deal that training on it actually can help a lot. You can get much more fine-grained feedback on how well you're taking certain corners etc. One thing that trips me up is understanding the kart - my local ones have somewhat poor acceleration, so it seems it's not actually best to take the corners as sharp as possible and try to accelerate out of the corner, but instead try to maintain as much speed as possible going into the corner, even if you end up on a bad line. This would be easy to test in a simulation, but I just have to go by gut feeling.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by wiz21c on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:17AM (#23747086)
The 1st rule we've learned is : you look all over the place, not just the kart in front of you.

The 2nd rule we've learned is : no skidding, never. That's really hard to do. But look at top pilots, they don't skid.

The 3d rule is : you do your best time on every single lap (super good pilots do almost the same time on most of their laps, within 0.3 sec range; it's hard to believe they do it, but they do !).

4th rule : figure out the best trajectory. According to my kid's teacher it's a question of 10 centimeters here or there (good luck figuring that out !).

Strangely, passing a car is the last thing you learn. But in retrospect,it's normal : most of the time you run after the one in front of you. The opportunities to pass another pilot are rare (most of the time you're much faster so the blue flags forces them to let you pass).

As a dad, I'd say : find a good teacher, it makes a big difference.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by lowestprimate on Monday July 06, 2020 @03:44PM (#23751917)
I knew a bunch of Indy car drivers and they could visualize a road course lap in their head down to 0.3 repeatably.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by jdhawk on Monday July 06, 2020 @10:54AM (#23748548)
how much do you weigh compared to the top drivers.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by olyjohn on Monday July 06, 2020 @11:04AM (#23748677)
I don't think that matters as much as you might think. We have 3 race classes at our local track. The Pro guys (top level) are easily 1-2 seconds above the Pro-am guys (mid-level). Some of these pros are not exactly lightweights and are considerably above the minimum weight. Yet they manage to slaughter everybody else out there. You would think they had a disadvantage to the people who are running the baseline weight in the kart, but you sure can't tell it.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by emerongi on Monday July 06, 2020 @11:33AM (#23748986)
The very top drivers (1.5s faster than me) are probably around my weight, I'm ~70kg. There are heavier guys who are doing 1s faster laps than me.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by otherme123 on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:29AM (#23747162)
Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid is allowed to enter the race with an expensive kart that makes 10% more power, has 10% more grip and overall gives the driver a "free" 1.5 seconds per lap. Suddenly an average driver can crush a top notch driver every time.

Because that's F1. There's not a balance driver/car. There are good cars, average cars and poor cars, almost all of them driven by good drivers. In karting (and many formula cathegories) the reverse scenario is true: there are good drivers, average drivers and bad drivers, all driving similar karts.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by wiz21c on Monday July 06, 2020 @09:49AM (#23747807)
>>> Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid

Indoor kart racing is, in my country, affordable to, say 50% of population (you may have to make some choices though). Count +/-120€ per month (2 training session + 1 race). Swimming lessons are 30€ per month I'd say.

Outdoor karting is really expensive and is for the 1% (which I'm not part of :-)). Count 1000€ per race, gasp !

F1 is well, for ultra rich :-) Plan robbing 1 bank, or 10 (binary joke intended).

But according to many, indoor karts makes you a great pilot because the machine doesn't compensate for your failures.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by tashoecraft on Monday July 06, 2020 @11:56AM (#23749202)
I have family that do outdoor karting, and they are learning just how expensive it gets. They are certainly not the 1%, and are actually considering switching their kid to spec miata as running a actual car is cheaper than karting. The kids they race against are sons (almost entirely sons) of ex f1 drivers, leading political figures of nations, and ultra wealthy. And this is all US based karting which has no segway into f1. It's truly a 1% sport, you either need to be ultra wealthy or very quickly get supported by someone with that level of wealth.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by t0mas88 on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:04PM (#23752121)
I've done outdoor KZ class (125cc 2 stroke, 6 gears, both front and rear brakes) karting, apart from a very wealthy parent most kids that make it to the top in Europe drive for factory sponsored teams.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by leokennis on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:52AM (#23747337)
So then I would like your prediction on who would become WDC:

* Hamilton/Verstappen in a Williams?

* Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes?

Don't forget the classic "to finish first, you first have to finish"...a drivers skill is not just better reaction time or better peripheral vision, it's also mental calm, not making stupid mistakes on lap 69 of 70, situational awareness etc.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by rguillebert on Monday July 06, 2020 @09:47AM (#23747795)
Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes for sure.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by leokennis on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:50AM (#23747313)
I have occasionally (and very recreationally) raced on track days. I do not know kart racing well, but even in a relatively slow (15 year old BMW) car, it's incredibly scary to race towards a brick wall at ~180 km/h and only brake at the last moment.

So I think that 10% is a lot of skill and dedication, but also a sort of numbing to that fear.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by LandR on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:09PM (#23749328)
I've done a lot of track days. You realise how big the skill gap is between an average person like me and a proper fast driver.

I've occasionally gone into a corner way faster than I should with my abilities, frightened myself, but the car has stuck to the track. It made the corner. I couldn't do this intentionally, even knowing that I can throw it into the corner x mph faster than I'm comfortable with and I will come out the other end pointing in the right direction, I still can't do it.

Then you realise that if I gave my car to a racing driver, he would drive it like that in every corner of every lap. Because he has to, because if he doesn't he's giving away time.

It blows my mind.

My limit for how fast I can drive a car is so much lower than even an average road cars physical limits.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by 2almalki on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:48PM (#23749743)
Agreed, I'm much more at the limit of the kart for every corner. If i crash, its not much $ out of my pocket. The value of the car is always at the back of my head when doing track days - even when its relatively "cheap", and thus I am slower. It take me much much longer to get up to the limit on the car :/
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by bborud on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:24AM (#23746352)
I think you are pointing to something very important. The car and team get you 90% of the way. But the last 10% is almost 100% up to the driver.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by mrslave on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:51AM (#23747320)
Reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote:

> Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by dyyni on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:19AM (#23746053)
Also, a good driver might not be a good team member which might put them in a disadvantage. Räikkönen was considered one of if not the fastest on the grid during his best years but iirc wasn't very good as a team member in the car's development phase which hampered his and his car's performance
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by ethbro on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:47AM (#23747292)
Nothing will ever be as great as Räikkönen's press conferences, though.

"Kimi!!! How did you feel the car was today?!"

"Car was good." walks off

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by ezconnect on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:48PM (#23749741)
One of Räikkönens great skill is giving feedback to the engineer that's why he is still driving and good at developing cars.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by otherme123 on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:10AM (#23747037)
But always against his teammate.

You can put whatever driver you name in a Mercedes from 2014 until today, and he will end at least in second place in the championship. I cannot imagine a single driver, not even Maldonado, that would end worst than 2nd except due to incredible bad luck with the car reliability.

Verstappen is an incredible good driver that probably deserves to win multi-championships. But as it is now, Bottas is closer to that achievement than him.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by eaurouge on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:18AM (#23746044)
The ratio varies - I would say it depends on the car, teammates and team. But ultimately driver skill is what determines who gets to drive for Mercedes, Ferrari etc. So once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams or leaving F1 all together.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by toyg on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:32AM (#23746120)
> once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams

That's not always the case. Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money. He was pretty spectacular on good days but nowhere as good as The Michael.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by eaurouge on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:53AM (#23746209)
Right. The current era is definitely more competitive than past eras. Teams were often cash strapped back then, so sponsorship money trumped driver skill in some teams. Also Ferrari was very much Schumacher’s team. Irvine was his supporting driver much more than a true teammate, unlike what we have these days in most teams, including at Mercedes and Red Bull.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by faichai on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:21AM (#23746340)
Teams are still cash strapped!
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by paublyrne on Monday July 06, 2020 @07:38AM (#23746812)
> Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money

I think you mean Jaguar. He moved from Jordan to Ferrari.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by toyg on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:39AM (#23747229)
Yes, sorry.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by rezeroed on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:20PM (#23749440)
"ultimately driver skill is what determines who gets to drive for Mercedes" - not what happened with Bottas. Doubt that's what happened with Sainz.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by rezeroed on Monday July 06, 2020 @03:12PM (#23751574)
You know something no one else does?
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by pmontra on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:29AM (#23747160)
The driver matters more when the cars are close in performance. Any driver on the grid would have been either World Champion or runner up in a Ferrari in 2002 and 2004, Red Bull 2011 and 2013, Mercedes in 2014-2016 and maybe 2019. The only opponent would be the team mate. The car matters nearly zero in the fight with a mate, that is only about driving skill: how to be fast and when, when to try to overtake and when not, etc. Most F1 drivers are very fast but not all of them are as wise in their driving as they should be. Some of them regularly end a race and score points, others regularly crash or throw away good results. (And some drivers are there because they are backed by sponsors with the money needed by the teams they drive for.)
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by BadOakOx on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:27AM (#23746092)
Chain Bear uploaded a video just a few days back where he analysis this: [What's more important: The Driver or the car?] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMN0oB0Waqw
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by AmericanChopper on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:26AM (#23746367)
It’s also the balance that the FIA has never managed to maintain to anybody’s satisfaction.

A lot of the issues with F1 stem from the fact that it’s actually two seperate competitions. If you let constructors build the fastest car that they safely can, then two bad things happen. Firstly, the fastest car will win. Secondly, the teams with less money can’t compete. The F1 brand is about having the most technologically advanced cars, but really it has to constantly hold the best teams back in order to keep things competitive. That’s why the regulations are so hopelessly complex (this years new regulations have to cover up the holes in last years poor regulating...), and it’s why anything that is truly innovative is nearly always instantly banned.

F1 is constantly swinging between a state of dominant constructors (Mercedes the past 6 years), and being more like a spec series (the new 2021 regs). If F1 wanted to actually live up to its brand, it would let the constructors build mostly whatever they wanted to. But if it did that, it would also have to divvy up the prize money more fairly to keep the lesser teams from going under, which it’s never going to do because of how political it all is.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by dyyni on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:27AM (#23747144)
A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by AmericanChopper on Monday July 06, 2020 @04:44PM (#23752532)
But that’s not a solution for balancing the concerns of the two competitions. The new regs are going to bring F1 closer to being a spec series than it’s ever been before.

The budget cap is just a little over the current Haas budget. Personally I don’t find the prospect of watching a race with 10 Haas level teams in it to be a particularly compelling idea. I’m also not that excited about the idea of constructor innovation being limited to what you can achieve with a Haas budget.

The budget cap is probably the bluntest tool available for addressing constructor performance balancing. For example, the current chassis rules make aero incredibly complex to design (which is expensive), and makes close racing impossible (because of all the dirty air). They would have been better off simplifying those rules (and maybe bringing back ground effect). Look at how well Racing Point performed last weekend, they nearly got a podium. The only significant change they made was copying the Mercedes 2019 aero kit.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by gripfx on Monday July 06, 2020 @05:11PM (#23752800)
I would be very surprised if Haas is spending anywhere close to the incoming budget cap. They arguably have the smallest expenditure thanks to the Ferrari parts deal and contracting the chassis out to Dallara. Of the current teams, I think only Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren (by a much smaller margin) are spending above the incoming cap.

Sealed ground effect will probably not return to F1, not for performance reasons but safety. Introducing the seal greatly increases downforce but once it is broken, the dropoff is incredible. Maintaining that would be nearly impossible with surface imperfections and debris on the track.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by AmericanChopper on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:00PM (#23753289)
The Haas budget for last year was ~ $170 million, not all of that goes to capped expenses, but after you account for that it puts them just under the new cap (Williams, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo all spend less than Haas). Renault, McLaren (about $270 million each) and Racing Point (about $190 million) are all above it. There are also 0 teams currently under the cap who make their own engines (Renault is the lowest budget non-customer team). So in terms of budget the current cap really does push everybody down to about the same level as Haas.

Regarding ground effect, the new 2021 regs have already brought it back. They’ve simplified the wing designs, and moved a lot of the downforce to ground effect. It’s not the same level of ground effect that F1 had in the 70s/80s, it’s more like the current IndyCar ground effect design. But the result from a following car perspective is the same. Moving the downforce from wake generating bodywork to under the chassis. However the overall effect is less downforce and therefore slower cars on circuit.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by gripfx on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:37PM (#23753581)
Those numbers are pretty generous, I would beg to differ on at least some of them. [1][2][3]

My mistake when you mentioned ground effect, I thought you meant sealed (skirts and fans). The ground effect you mean is already a thing in present F1 thanks to diffusers. The new rules have just made the diffuser bigger and simplified the front and rear wings.

[1] https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/07/todt-admits-2021-budget-...

[2] https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/27/the-cost-of-f1-2019-team...

[3] https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the-cost-of-f1-2019-part...

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by AmericanChopper on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:56PM (#23753718)
The budget cap was revised down after Covid hit (down to $145 million from $175 million), to stop the midfield from going broke, and Ross Brawn says they’re going to lower it further in the coming years [0].

You can’t figure out exactly what teams that’s going to hit, because publicly available finances don’t have enough detail. But it’s either going to bring spending more or less in line with Haas or Racing Point, who are both pretty close in terms of spending anyway. The reason McLaren (a relatively big spending team) are so publicly in favour of it is that they’ve had some pretty serious financial trouble going on recently.

[0]: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-news-f1-...

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by pmontra on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:42AM (#23747257)
I'd go with something more radical: a 2x5 meters max box, 100 kg of gas for the 300 km race, 600 kg minimum weight, 50 million budget maybe including the drivers (there is a very long line of them) and maybe a max downforce test if it can be made hard to cheat. Then let the teams do whatever they want.

Somebody will optimize for the engine, somebody for the aerodynamics, somebody for the suspensions, somebody for the tires (buy them from whoever they want) etc. I guess very few will spend much on the driver.

At the beginning they'll be slower than the current cars (which are only marginally faster than the v10s of 2004) but year after year they'll improve new areas of the design and get fast again. I expect a lot of technical drama and very different solutions. It's going to be back to the 70x and 80s with today's technology and processes.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by ethbro on Monday July 06, 2020 @08:53AM (#23747346)
It could definitely be managed better, to optimize for what they seem to be trying to (sport + performance).

Budget caps seems like a cop-out though, as eventually the budgetary rules inherit all the complexity in the current technical rules.

I think some kind of FRAND forced tech licensing / transfer + shared manufacturing would be an interesting solution. Whereby a hyper-optimized solution by a leading team can be licenses (or is outright open sourced) for the next season. And similarly, where all builders have access to a neutral manufacturing facility (a la TSMC).

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by raverbashing on Monday July 06, 2020 @10:08AM (#23747982)
There is something like that in the engine market where some teams are customers of other teams (usually with last year's engine)
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by AmericanChopper on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:16PM (#23753420)
Customer teams get exactly the same engine that the works team uses. The reason they don’t perform as well is that they still have to design the rest of their car (which includes a lot of performance impacting design), and they also may have to modify the engine to fit it in their chassis.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by pmontra on Tuesday July 07, 2020 @07:35AM (#23758088)
This and the difference in resources. Only Red Bull managed to systematically outperform the factory team of their engine (Renault.) McLaren is more on an even ground with them but still a little bit better. Renault is not pouring much money in their car.

And people who like to think about possible unfairness could argue that manufacturers build about 100 engines per season, test them, then pick the ones to keep, the ones to give to customers and the ones that turned out not to be good enough for racing. It's hard to get the very best engine if you are only a customer and you're really competing against the manufacturer and not only an appearance.

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by dyyni on Monday July 06, 2020 @10:38AM (#23748355)
This reminded me of Finnish folk racing Jokamiesluokka[1], where the owner of the car has to entertain offers for the car after a race and must sell the car if there's a willing buyer. This is to keep the cost of cars down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkrace

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by Infernal on Monday July 06, 2020 @12:27PM (#23749515)
This is similarly done in American short-track racing as well with the “engine claim” system - I’ve normally heard of it on dirt but I wouldn’t be surprised if asphalt series do it to.

Below is just one example of how these rules can be structured.

https://dirtcar.com/rules/dirtcar-modifieds/engine/engine-cl...

Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by FrojoS on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:33PM (#23753564)
That means those teams will have to fire a majority of their workforce, no?
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by AmericanChopper on Monday July 06, 2020 @06:38PM (#23753597)
Yes. Ferrari has said they’re looking at entering other racing series (maybe IndyCar), but nothing confirmed.
Re:Formula 1 2020: The secret aerodynamicist – are capes the... by kkotak on Monday July 06, 2020 @01:55PM (#23750656)
I wouldn't call Bottas an average driver. His temperament and consistency of top performance is commendable. He has played second fiddle to Lewis for a long time, which is a shame. The car does give him an edge but I would bet most teams would hire him in a flash if he decides to shop around.