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Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by ipnon on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:33PM (#23656024)
Mesh networking is a great solution here.

NYC Mesh puts a fiber connected node with a laser receiver on a tall building. You install a laser receiver on top of your building. Anyone with line of sight to the node now has fast, affordable internet access. They don't have to deal with mega telecoms anymore.

[0] https://www.nycmesh.net/

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by 293984j29384 on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:49PM (#23656199)
A wireless mesh network is not an alternative to fiber based internet. It's a great idea and has many useful applications but it's slow. Loop Internet sells symmetrical gigabit for $65/month. The laser receiver on the top of your building (NYC Mesh has been known to use a Ubiquiti LiteBeam AC Gen2) typically has less than 350-450 Mbps of bandwidth total and that's for the entire building to share. I have 30~ units in my building. How well is that mesh networking going to scale? Is it better than say, dial-up? Sure. Is it better than basically any other type of broadband? No.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by xxpor on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:57PM (#23656960)
>The laser receiver on the top of your building (NYC Mesh has been known to use a Ubiquiti LiteBeam AC Gen2) typically has less than 350-450 Mbps of bandwidth total and that's for the entire building to share. I have 30~ units in my building.

If you already have line of sight I don't see a reason this couldn't be replaced with a 60ghz 802.11ad link, which should give you 4.6 gigabits.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by GordonS on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:26PM (#23657252)
Hadn't come across 802.11ad, but Wikipedia seems to think it's range is "just a few meters"[0]?

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ad

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by xxpor on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:50PM (#23657447)
That range is true in a typical household setup with an omnidirectional antenna and things like... walls.

If you have line of sight though and a fixed point to point link the range is much greater, since there's nothing in the way and an dish antenna gives you huge gain.

https://store.ui.com/collections/unifi-network-routing-switc...

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by Godel_unicode on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:49PM (#23657941)
From the linked page:

"Ideal for high-throughput connectivity with a range of up to 500 m".

For reference, that approximately two blocks in NYC.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by xxpor on Friday June 26, 2020 @07:41PM (#23658230)
That's for maximum bandwidth. You can go farther if you want with slower speeds.

Anyway, I looked up the Ubiquiti LiteBeam AC Gen2 since I wasn't familiar with it, and I think OP might have the wrong impression. It's a LiteBeam, not a LightBeam. The LiteBeam is just bog standard 5 GHz 802.11ac with a high gain antenna. That explains the data rates.

Given that, there seems to be no disadvantage to using the 60 GHz solution if you're close enough to the next building where it's still faster (probably close to 2 miles). It's only ~$200 more, which spread out over a building is basically nothing.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by Godel_unicode on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:20PM (#23659263)
How are you getting from 500m to 2 miles? Is there any data to support this?
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by notdonspaulding on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:13AM (#23659459)
Ubiquiti makes gigabit speed wireless backhaul devices in the unlicensed 24Ghz band. It's the AF24HD. They can go several miles, but are susceptible to the signal dropping in the rain depending on your climate.

MikroTik makes some 60Ghz point to point gigabit radios that can supposedly go for 2km.

Finally, many commercial providers of E-band devices (licensed 70-80Ghz spectrum) sell gigabit capable radios that can go a couple of miles.

Any of those seem like good options for an urban building in need of better internet service.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by kbenson on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:24AM (#23659504)
Those are likely great options for people and small groups that don't have other options. At the same time, I doubt you'll see many companies jumping to provide that service, at least not ones that have the experience to handle it appropriately.

Wireless internet makes for a very poor product to sell, because the service is unreliable, and often has problems exactly when people want it most (during inclement weather). Also, customers often have a problem dissassociating problems that should be expected with the service from problems with the service provider. It's probably not very gratifying to provide what is often the only option people have for high speed internet to have some subset of them that don't understand the reality, or are just too upset to care, disparage your name online. It also probably doesn't lead to securing additional contracts easily, and as soon as other connectivity does become available, your customers will leave at the earliest opportunity (there's not a lot of friction to signing up somewhere else when the service is currently down).

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by adrianN on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:46AM (#23659573)
I'm no RF engineer, but I'm pretty sure a 60Ghz link will be crippled when it rains.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by corty on Saturday June 27, 2020 @04:44AM (#23660416)
as will the laser
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by generatorguy on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:53PM (#23657475)
presumably you can have more than one laser link using the same frequency and bandwidth of light since it is a laser beam just put the next link a couple meters over and they should not interfere with each other at all.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by notdonspaulding on Saturday June 27, 2020 @12:16AM (#23659476)
The parent comment is confused. NYC mesh doesn't use actual laser beams, they use a cheap 5Ghz TDMA solution made by Ubiquiti called Litebeam. Interference can be a big issue for this equipment, especially in an urban environment with a high noise floor.

(No affiliation with NYC folks, just a WISP guy handing out the basics)

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by save_ferris on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:47PM (#23656175)
This is great for urban areas, but connectivity in more rural parts of the country is shockingly bad, and doesn't seem to have as many elegant solutions as densely populated urban areas do. I live "out in the country" now during COVID and I'm now paying $60 for 250MB/s down, as opposed to paying $70 for gigabit a couple months ago living in the city.

It cannot be understated how badly the more rural parts of the country are being screwed by big telecom right now.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by notJim on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:29PM (#23657271)
> I'm now paying $60 for 250MB/s down

LOL. My mom lives in an older house in a formerly-rural area where she's now surrounded by suburb-style new development. She wanted cable internet, and it cost her about $8000 and endless hours of haranguing Cox and chasing down service vans just to get a hook up. Literally she would see a Cox van at a construction site and stop and ask the person, because no one would talk to her on the phone. She eventually found one guy who gave her his business card and cell number, and knew a few people in the construction department who would help. The woman who took her credit card number over the phone to charge for the service told her she knew absolutely nothing about the process, and could make no guarantees about when it would happen. My mom was so desperate, she gave her her credit card number anyway. It took nearly a year to run maybe 100 yards of cable down her driveway from the street to her house, but she finally does have broadband now.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by dpoochieni on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:19PM (#23657706)
Meanwhile in Mexico... my dad's closest ISP switch was fully saturated by his neighbors. Somehow, he convinced the guys to run a full fiber run (about 300 ft) to his house from the next link for a good tip (20 USD). Even then the service is not particularly expensive around 30USD for 50MB+ symmetric. I was surprised it is more expensive in the US after many years of being quite expensive in Mexico and basically having a monopoly.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by cheerlessbog on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:50PM (#23656208)
> $60 for 250MB/s dow

I’m going to guess that 80% of the US can’t get that.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by freeopinion on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:46PM (#23656833)
I live in a rural area where the incumbent is building out FTTH as fast as they can. For all residences that have fiber, the price difference between 50M, 300M, and 1000M is significant.

The actual bandwidth used by a 300M customer and a 1000M customer is usually the same. The provider's upstream contracts would not change much if they put every one of their customers on 1000M.

But their pricing is regulated. The arm and a leg they charge for 1000M service is largely a function of that regulation, even though it hardly affects their costs otherwise. You might think that if the infrastructure costs are the same for 1M or 1000M and that the infrastructure costs are 90% of all costs, 1M and 1000M could be priced within 25% of each other. It might seem that a price jump from $100/50M to $1000/1000M is unreasonable. But the U.S. government right now is handing out $billions to rural providers to build out fiber, then requiring them to charge ridiculously high prices.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by dsr_ on Friday June 26, 2020 @07:04PM (#23658038)
"The actual bandwidth used by a 300M customer and a 1000M customer is usually the same. The provider's upstream contracts would not change much if they put every one of their customers on 1000M."

Correct. I have a gig/gig symmetrical connection and a family of four information-devouring people. In the last 30 days we used 1 TB of data... which is to say, an average of just over 3Mb/s. We probably peaked at about 600Mb/s a few times.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by beezle on Friday June 26, 2020 @05:25PM (#23657238)
Can I switch with you? I pay $88/mo for what is rate as "25 Mbps" high speed service. Reality? 20-22 Mbps down and 6-8 Mbps up in the local area, falling off significantly with distance (10.5 down just now to SF).

This is asymmetric with no disclaimer on their advertising page from an entrenched local monopoly in the north east (a small one)

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by gbrown on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:50PM (#23657954)
I’d happily switch with you lol. $60 for 10/0.5. American broadband infrastructure is a sad joke.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by BenjiWiebe on Friday June 26, 2020 @09:30PM (#23658797)
We were at 6/0.768 for ~$90/month. 60ms latency. We switched to a local WISP and got 10/2 for $65/month, with 20ms latency. And the WISP's service is usually a bit faster than what they say as opposed to CenturyLink...
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by gbrown on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:21PM (#23659272)
If I had more free time, I’d legitimately start a WISP for my neighborhood.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by shadowoflight on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:50PM (#23656868)
I pay $70 for 175/5, and I'm technically in the biggest city in my state.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by mtwshngtn on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:22PM (#23656541)
We pay $50/mo for (up to) 10 Mb/s down, 1 Mb/s up (that's megabits, so just over 1 MB/s down, and 0.125 MB/s up). Our only alternative is bundled service from Comcast that's $130/mo not including fees (at up to 300 Mb/s, with a 1TB data cap).
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by gbrown on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:47PM (#23657928)
I’m paying $60 for 10Mbps down and 0.5 up.

It’s a weird situation. Windstream lies to the federal government and says they offer broadband to my area, when they don’t offer any service at all. The only actual provider (South Slope), which offers fiber elsewhere, is therefore shut out of the usual federal programs to finance upgrades to the completely antiquated and over-provisioned DSL lines. I’m 3 miles line of sight from their headquarters.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by rnicholus on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:48PM (#23657939)
I’m out in rural Wisconsin with 3 choices for high-speed Internet. With my current provider: 1Gbps down/400Mbps up for $75/month.

My parents live in the near Chicago suburbs, have 1 choice for high speed Internet, and pay $80/month for 100Mbps down and 6Mbps up.

So, rural internet options are actually better than urban in some areas.

Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by stronglikedan on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:30PM (#23656643)
I wonder how well it works during a blizzard, when you want your internet to be working since you're stuck inside.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by billsnow on Friday June 26, 2020 @07:56PM (#23658321)
Laser? Do you have any links for them using lasers? I only see directional antennas (that you can buy on amazon) on their site.
Re:The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers by freeopinion on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:32PM (#23656661)
Who provides that fiber connection?