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Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by josephpmay on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:14AM (#23652174)
I think one point people are missing:

Apple stores, even if they exist mainly to promote the brand, are MASSIVELY profitable. In fact, they are one of the most profitable store chains in the world. By contract, I believe that Microsoft was always running most of their stores at a loss. Even for a massive company like Microsoft, continuously running an unprofitable division is hard to maintain.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:50AM (#23652591)
This is purely anecdotal. Take it with a grain of salt.

We have a "high-end" Simon mall, in a town near where I live. It's quite "upscale," with Saks Fifth Avenue, Bloomingdales, etc.

It has an Apple Store near the South entrance, and a Microsoft Store, near the center.

The Apple Store is always packed. I haven't been there in a few months, so I have no idea what's going on with it at the moment, but it has always been jammed, when I have gone there; even at early or late hours. I have never found a time when it is not crowded.

The Microsoft Store, on the other hand, usually has more staff than customers, with the staff playing XBox in the sitting area outside the store.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by WWLink on Friday June 26, 2020 @12:19PM (#23653695)
The Microsoft stores seemed to be a "ME TOO!" thing. I doubt MS ever opened a store in a mall that didn't have an apple store (or wasn't expected to have one).

Like I'm sure that's what the point was. Someone would go try some Macs out at the Apple store and walk past the Microsoft store on the way to their car. They'd go in, check out the goods (as a matter of comparison shopping), and possibly buy a PC instead.

In my experience though, post-iPhone, very few people go to Apple stores to buy computers. Sure, that's still probably a lot of people, but 99.99% of the people in the store seem to be there about an iPhone (half the time, an iphone that they broke and expect to be fixed under warranty lol).

MS was in the business of selling phones for a while. I wonder if their stores lost traffic because they don't do phones anymore.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by graeme on Friday June 26, 2020 @06:10PM (#23657643)
Yeah I think it misses the rationale for the Apple stores. Jobs felt that Apple products were different, and weren’t getting a good sales experience by having big box store employees sell them.

This proved a correct thesis for the apple store, and then the stores grew as apple built mass market products.

Microsoft’s product lineup does fairly well. But it is not mass market. And while they are different from PCs, they still run Windows, which is widely familiar among laptop buyers. Further, retail is less important a channel than it used to be. Microsoft can market its products directly online. So even if Microsoft has some of the disAdvantages Apple had, it doesn’t really have the full use case.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by scarface74 on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:49PM (#23654812)
I wouldn’t go to an Apple store to buy a computer because you can only buy stock configurations. I would go in to get a feel for them and order online. In the case of Apple Stores. They don’t care if people are “showrooming” and then buy online. Apple gets paid either way.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by WrtCdEvrydy on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:47PM (#23656839)
You can also "ship to store" for Apple. Great if you are a working professional and don't want to leave that stuff on your porch at home.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by TwoNineFive on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:53PM (#23659400)
Great observation on the "mee too!" thing. Microsoft is basically a Me Too company. Look at all their products and history.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by gipp on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:06AM (#23652788)
Sure, but a large portion of the Apple store crowds has always been people just hanging around and goofing off on the laptops. IIRC it's policy in those places to always let people do that however long they want, even if there's clearly no intent to buy anything. I've always wondered what portion of those crowds are actually customers.

EDIT: Yes, everyone, I understand the marketing and lifetime-value reasons for doing that. I'm just questioning the value of comparing crowd sizes as a direct measure of relative instantaneous revenue/success.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by reaperducer on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:44AM (#23653267)
I've always wondered what portion of those crowds are actually customers.

It doesn't really matter, though, because as the OP pointed out, Apple Stores are massively profitable. This is well known in retail circles.

Landlords fall all over themselves to get Apple Stores. Real estate developers will include Apple Stores, or Apple Store lookalikes in their renderings even before the buildings are built, just to get people interested in their projects.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by snapetom on Friday June 26, 2020 @12:37PM (#23653929)
Plus, it gave Apple the perception that there's higher demand for Apple products over Microsoft. Some average Joe thinking about a tablet walks by a packed Apple Store and an empty Microsoft store. It's pretty obvious how that influences their decision.

Microsoft set up a lot of stores in the same malls as Apple Stores. This disparity in numbers has always been the case, no matter how good the MS experience has been as others have pointed out. Seems Apple learned their lessons from the first time the battled Microsoft. Consumers don't do as deep of a research as the tech crowd thinks.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by pwinnski on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:51AM (#23653367)
Apple retails stores top every list of revenue per square foot. It's not even close[0].

Crowds may be anecdotal, but the crowds clearly do translate into revenue for Apple.

The link spells out revenue per square foot for Apple as $5546, vs an average of $325. Second and third places bring in $3721 and $2951 per square foot.

[0] https://chainstoreage.com/news/most-profitable-retailers-sal...

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by dingaling on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:58PM (#23654944)
"The record for the greatest sales in relation to area of selling space is held by Richer Sounds plc, a British hi-fi retail chain. Sales at its branch in London Bridge Walk reached a peak of £195,426/m² ($27,830/ft²) for the financial year ending 31 January 1994."
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:09AM (#23652824)
That happens in many stores. I call them "store groupies." Around here, vape stores have them in droves. I remember them hanging around Science-Fiction bookstores; often using the back rooms to have D&D games.

I think that every one of them becomes a customer, eventually. Many of them become evangelists, which can sometimes be even more valuable.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by braythwayt on Friday June 26, 2020 @04:01PM (#23656319)
There was a "Byte Store" on Queen West in Toronto in the early days of personal computers.

There were--cough--a number of teenagers hanging around like groupies. One of them--cough--may even have installed their heavily customized SuperStarTrek game, and had it become the store's favourite demo.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by k12sosse on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:46AM (#23653292)
and store employees call them "loiterers". A herd of human waste, with no money or no intent to purchase anything.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by hedora on Friday June 26, 2020 @12:07PM (#23653554)
If this is a problem, then don’t pay the employees based on commissions, and train them to make such people feel welcome to ask questions, play with demo machines, etc.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by spideymans on Friday June 26, 2020 @12:16PM (#23653663)
Those people goofing around on the computers are future customers.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by dhosek on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:17PM (#23655162)
I've never seen any customers in the Microsoft Store in Oak Brook. I'm sure they must have some once in a while and it's not like I spend a lot of time in Oak Brook, but it has always been empty of customers every time I've passed it by. I don't think I've seen any other store in the whole mall as empty of customers.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by KoftaBob on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:34PM (#23654606)
Lemme guess, Roosevelt Field Mall? Sounds like my experiences at that mall.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday June 26, 2020 @03:07PM (#23655723)
Walt Whitman, but Roosevelt Field is about the same, from what I hear (I know someone that worked as a "genius" at that store).
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by bredren on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:27AM (#23652312)
I saw Ron Johnson speak around 2012 in San Mateo. He oversaw the initial rise of the Apple Store. I remember him saying Jobs told him there was basically an unlimited budget to make the stores a success. The difference is it only took Apple three years to reach $1B in annual sales.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by lotsofpulp on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:55AM (#23652640)
> The difference is it only took Apple three years to reach $1B in annual sales.

It took far more than that to earn the trust of consumers. Microsoft decided to sit back, collect rent on Windows/Office, and let other business do the hard work of customer service and let their customers deal with malware on their laptops.

Contrast with Apple, who put customer service front and center, opened stores that my parents could go to and talk to someone if they had a problem. They took ownership of the product. And now they are rewarded with the profits.

Microsoft had all the cash in the world to make it happen. But instead, they put Candy Crush in the start menu.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by listenallyall on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:40PM (#23655400)
> Microsoft decided to sit back

Weak take. Microsoft was very active with numerous mobile offerings -- Pen Computing, Windows Mobile, Tablet and Embedded Windows. You can debate why they ultimately failed -- too early, insufficient hardware, too Windows-centric -- but @billg was never content just "collecting rent" and not innovating, especially in mobile, internet, and connectivity.

Your bias is obvious when you describe MSFT as "collecting rent" (negative connotation) and AAPL as "rewarded with profits" (positive).

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by deanCommie on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:53PM (#23655548)
None of these products were for consumers.

Even on the business side, Microsoft never understood or cared about their users (besides maybe Word and Excel users), and marketed towards CEOs and COMPANIES.

see: Sharepoint which is the most financially successful Microsoft product ever, yet every end user despises it.

They never tried or cared to work backwards from a consumer user or what they wanted, they just started from "how do we make billions of dollars from licensing fees".

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by loydb on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:06AM (#23652784)
> Microsoft had all the cash in the world to make it happen. But instead, they put Candy Crush in the start menu.

And got rid of Pinball. :(

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by yellowstuff on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:13AM (#23652882)
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by blibble on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:28AM (#23653084)
that's one of the pathetic excuses I've ever read

they're an OS developer and they can't spend a day figuring out a floating point bug?

maybe redirect some of the time integrating Candy Crush

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by ryandrake on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:57PM (#23654933)
The follow-up on open sourcing the code was also unhelpful:

> Hey everybody asking that the source code be released: The source code was licensed from another company. If you want the source code, you have to go ask them.

OK, which company?

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by coldpie on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:22PM (#23655206)
Well, in 1995 it was developed by Cinematronics and published by Maxis. In 2020, who knows. Probably Disney.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by jodrellblank on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:10PM (#23654333)
Windows 7 came out in 2009, at least three years before candy crush.

> they're an OS developer and they can't spend a day figuring out a floating point bug?

Maybe it’s bad to argue by appeal to authority, but I take Raymond Chen’s side that it was a hard problem to debug in the time available over some internet sneering that it must have been easy, any day.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by Dylan16807 on Saturday June 27, 2020 @07:36PM (#23665587)
> Windows 7 came out in 2009, at least three years before candy crush.

Well they haven't ported it in the decade since.

> in the time available

Same response.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by mrguyorama on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:48AM (#23653319)
They don't own the code
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by bcrosby95 on Friday June 26, 2020 @12:36PM (#23653912)
According to the link: they licensed the code and had access to it. But none of them wrote it and they couldn't justify the days of debugging that would be required when they had millions of other LOC to test and port.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by jodrellblank on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:06PM (#23654266)
> and let their customers deal with malware on their laptops.

They upped their game with the built in Windows Defender to the point where you don’t need third party AV because it’s rated so highly.

> Contrast with Apple, who put customer service front and center, opened stores that my parents could go to and talk to someone if they had a problem.

Like all the retail stores Microsoft opened, which people in this thread are saying provided a really good experience?

> Microsoft had all the cash in the world to make it happen. But instead, they put Candy Crush in the start menu.

Contrast with Apple who put sponsored results in the App Store and prevent you from deleting default apps in macOS Catalina? https://www.reddit.com/r/osx/comments/dfetr4/comment/f32q81e

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by scarface74 on Friday June 26, 2020 @01:51PM (#23654855)
Did you read the link? It didn’t say you couldn’t do it. You have to jump through hoops but they are well defined hoops.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by ridiculous_fish on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:13PM (#23659228)
> opened stores that my parents could go to and talk to someone if they had a problem

Yes, the Genius Bars are just fantastic! You make an appointment and then you get help from someone knowledgeable, in person, for free. And that person is authorized to accept repairs, etc.

The Big Idea of the Genius Bar is that it's there to help. It's not there to upsell like Geek Squad. It's not hoping you'll go away like typical CS reps. Its mandate really does seem to be "make Apple customers happy."

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by basch on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:13AM (#23652880)
The apple store crowd is roughly 7% people confused about the error that says backups have stopped working unless you pay $.99. wondering what they can do to make the error go away. Wondering what they can delete and how.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by chasd00 on Friday June 26, 2020 @12:41PM (#23653979)
Apple store sales per square foot beat even Tiffany's and it doesn't take much room to display diamonds.

https://chainstoreage.com/news/most-profitable-retailers-sal....

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by rschapman on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:05PM (#23655037)
That's interesting to hear. Do you have inside knowledge on that? A former colleague in the HR space worked for Apple retail said that many of them were actually not profitable on the whole. They served lots of purposes but most of the value was intangible and not revenue driven. She/I may be wrong but it's counter to what I was told.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by sharkjacobs on Friday June 26, 2020 @02:53PM (#23655544)
There was a study which was in the news cycle[1] a few years ago that claimed that Apple stores were the most profitable retail space by square foot.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/29/here-are-the-retailers-that-...

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by josuepeq on Friday June 26, 2020 @11:09PM (#23659207)
Revenue per square foot is high. Profit, not so much.

The “family room” employees now make up most of the Apple Store staff. One can buy an iPhone anywhere, but same-day service to fix that iPhone is more limited. I mean, where would you go?

The cost of payroll for Geniuses, Technical Specialists, Genius Admins, and Trainers, is quite a bit higher than for sales staff - higher pay and the larger headcount of the department. Because of this, any profit from the sales side is absorbed by the tremendous cost of operating their service business.

Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by thrwn_frthr_awy on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:23AM (#23652269)
Also, Apple has continued to pay their retail employees throughout the closures. If the Microsoft stores were already struggling for profitability, closing the stores may have been the better choice rather than to having to layoff and then try to rehire.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by postingawayonhn on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:34AM (#23652397)
The article mentions that there will be no layoffs and the staff have already been redeployed to remote roles.
Re:Microsoft to permanently close its retail stores by josephpmay on Friday June 26, 2020 @10:31AM (#23652361)
Except that they are keeping all of them employed.