Thanks so much to the folks making purchases! Each time I get the email saying an order has come in, it reinforces for me that this is actually a product people want, which is just so ridiculously cool at this early stage. Thank you!!

> Right now I'm working on a dog treat business

Interesting, I'm a chef (ex?) and a friend of mine wanted to start a dog food company in 2016-17 but never got around to it. Your approach looks pretty straight forward, for some reason I thought you'd have to be at a commissary kitchen and have food handlers paperwork on top off all the stuff you mentioned.

I'll share your link with them and maybe they get re-interested, do you have any interest in a collaboration for dog food in the future? Provided it met your standards etc...

I actually wanted to see if we could do it entirely upcycling the loss in food waste in the supply chain and restaurants as I know that Industry well and have made efforts to try and reduce as much as possible. I honestly would take home multiple 3 pans full of high grade sashimi grade salmon from saute's prep, and at least 5 lbs of blood lined yellow fin tuna from my station every week.

I still have a bunch of it sitting in my freezer and I know tons of restaurants and farms are sitting on the same or more.

Yeah, I also thought there would be a whole lot more red tape to get through before I started looking into it. I can't imagine starting a human food company with everything that's required for that.

I'm happy to chat with anybody in the space - I'm very early on, so it may be too early for any kind of collaboration, but definitely never hurts to talk to other folks who are interested in this kind of thing.

Awesome!

I'll see what they say and reach out if they still have the motivation.

I'll refer to this post and drop you a line to your gmail account listed on your site of this materializes an take it from there.

Sounds great, thanks!

Sincere question—how do you handle legal, especially with consumables?

On the safety side, I've had crude analysis done (which is the standard nutritional testing for pet food in the US and was $250 per flavor), and I've consulted with a couple of vets to make sure the product is safe.

On the legal side, I've got business insurance, which thankfully isn't that expensive. I've been holding off on forming an LLC since that's gonna run me about a grand here in CA including the cost of setting it up and LLC tax, but if there's continued interest in the product, I'll do that soon.

Edit: Also AAFCO is a group that has standards for this sort of thing that are pretty straightforward: https://petfood.aafco.org/Portals/1/pdf/eight_required_labei...

Why not incorporate somewhere that's not CA?

If you do that then you have two problems: the same amount in fees from CA for being a foreign entity operating in that state + the fees of whatever state you formed your LLC/C-Corp/S-Corp/whatever.

That's a good question... the last couple of LLCs that I've formed have been for businesses that are clearly operating in CA (one was for real estate here and the other for a local service company) and thus require the LLC there. Since I'm selling to the whole US here, maybe it is a better option... I will look into it.

Lawyer here. Not yours. But consider Delaware or really any state. You do not need to form it in CA just because that’s where you are. Just get a registered agent and pick a state that doesn’t have oppressive LLC fees...

We've gone over this with our lawyers many times, but if you do the majority of your business operations in CA and have an LLC in any state you'll be subject to $800/year minimum franchise tax in CA still.

https://www.lobbplewe.com/blog/2019/09/rules-for-out-of-stat...

CA levies a (not insignificant) fee even for Delaware LLCs that operate in California.

Yes, $800. Same cost as forming the LLC.

Damn, that's what I was hoping to avoid :/

Weather tax.

What should we check to see which state is the best to form an LLC in? I want to double-check whether it’s viable to form one in my state before considering Delaware.

Why an LLC instead of an S-corp?

Because then you end up paying there _and_ in CA. Any state you do business in demands a cut. Even so, if you ever intend to sell your company or do business outside your state, it makes sense to be a Delaware company - lots of lawyers know Delaware business law.

why not an S-corp over an LLC?

I'm not an expert and will need to double check, but I believe an S-corp is more complex, and since it's just me it's not really any better. And from the tax side as an LLC you can elect to be taxed as an S-corp so no benefit there.

Phantom income from my s-corp excluded my family and I from healthcare subsidies when I really couldn't afford to pay full price for healthcare.

I wonder if the FDA (or equivalent in awillen's jurisdiction) would care about non-human consumables.

The FDA does regulate, but much more lightly - from their site:

"The FDA’s regulation of pet food is similar to that for other animal food. There is no requirement that pet food products have premarket approval by the FDA. However, the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) requires that pet foods, like human foods, be safe to eat, produced under sanitary conditions, contain no harmful substances, and be truthfully labeled."

I'd hope they care at least some. Little kids love to eat dog/cat food and treats, and it's hard to keep them out of it. At least enough to make sure it's not, like, full of lead or something.

They can't even keep baby powder from being cancer causing - you're fooling yourself if you're solely relying on them for your safety.

Very cool idea! I went ahead and bought a starter kit. I think you're on to something here.

Thanks so much!

I agree with cableshaft, it seems like a good idea. ~24 treats from the $9.99 mix container is also quite reasonable. The site is solid, loads fast. I like your box packaging, it's well done. Good luck with this venture.

Thanks!

I had a look and this might be a completely ignorant suggestion (I don’t have a dog) but to me it was very surprising that dogs would like frozen food, so maybe you should explain that/why they do. Just seemed counterintuitive, I’ve never seen anybody give anything frozen to their dog.

Anecdata: many dogs I know of really enjoy ice cubes. A meat flavored ice cube would probably make them quite excited.

Anecdata: my cat loves ice cubes too. You can roll them all over the floor, lick them, carry them around - super fun.

Ice cream style treats (made for dogs, so not real ice cream) have become very popular with dog owners. You'll see them carried in all major grocery stores in the US now.

For example:

https://www.purina.com/frosty-paws

And:

http://dogstersicecream.com

Dogs can't sweat, which makes it hard for them to cool down. They cool off by panting.

In hot weather, I imagine a lot of dogs would go for something cold to consume if it was made available.

Hey, it's a bit of a head-scratcher why I made a note (well, username tag) of this, but according to it, it's your birthday today or tomorrow.

Might as well put the info to good use, so if correct: happy birthday!

(I suspect this was around the time a year or two ago that I was testing out my HN tagger extension/server)

Yes, yesterday was my birthday. I mostly laid low and did design work and the like on several reddits that I run.

A lot of dogs (mine included) love to crunch on ice cubes. You can also find a lot of recipes for frozen treats online - I started by looking there first, but they were all heavy on ingredients my dog isn't fond of (he really just likes meat).

Might be a geographical/climate thing. I'm in San Diego, so frozen treats are good year round here.

how did you find expiration dates for your consumables?

My feedback, product looks great, packaging looks great. I would not want to buy the Beef & Cheddar. Compare the label of Beef & Cheddar to Turkey & Cinnamon. Turkey & Cinnamon have four simple ingredients, Turkey, Yogurt Powder, Whole Wheat Flour, Cinnamon. Compare that to Beef & Cheddar, there are so many things in that ingredient list by comparison. When I think of food that is 'good for you' I want to see simple ingredients that I can pronounce, no food dyes or additives.

Thanks for the feedback! All the extra stuff on the B&C comes from the cheddar cheese powder - for the most part they're natural ingredients (excluding things like the yellow color, etc.), but you're right, it doesn't look great.

Once we get low on my current supply of cheese powder, I'm going to look into getting a food dehydrator to make my own cheese powder.

Food dehydrators are a fun rabbit hole. Florists use them for wedding bouquets. You will also find a TON of info about scrappily acquiring them on prepper websites. I've seen several posts by Mormon families (food preservation and supply is encouraged by the religion), and a lot of the good ones get into taste, methods for preparing food, and doing it in bulk (which you'd care about). But the se sites will have a large cross with militia and shtf type folks. So conversations will go not where you think sometimes.

I think the most informative one I read was on something like shtf fourms. It stayed tame, other than everyone wanting to buy the dehydrator after the author was done.

They're fun, but high-fat foods like dairy are mostly unsuitable for at home dehydration. Especially at a bulk level. I'm not an expert on nutrition labeling law but OP might have more luck listing "dehydrated cheddar cheese (ingredients, here)" with the ingredients in parenthesis. That signals to the consumer that even though there are a lot of big ingredients they are really just one thing.

What are "se sites"?

Misspelled. Shtf. Shit hits the fan. Type of prepper who is worried about full failure of society and all services. Stockpiling ammo, guns, plate armor, etc.

As opposed to say someone who keeps a month of food, water, fuel, meds, entertainment on hand, which looks pretty normal now.

Got it, thanks.

Yeah, one of the suppliers I've identified for freeze dried foods is one of those survivalist prepper type stores. I'm sure my use case is not what they're thinking about :)

What size are you looking at?

At the moment I'm buying #10 cans (which are like 3 quarts I believe), though obviously I'll try to scale that up if sales merit it.

That'd be a pretty big dehydrator / freeze dryer to use. I'm I'm guessing at least a 3-1 if not 5-1 ratio on cheese.

Hmm, yeah, that makes sense - I'd still be interested to try it just to understand the process and see how it turns out. Ultimately if this gets big enough I'd want to find a co-packer for production, so it would be good to understand the whole process at a small scale before going that route anyway.

I don't have a dog, so this is just a random question I'd be asking before buying if I did.. what's the smell like when making these? You say it's fun for the family but I would immediately be worried about it stinking like dog food and making my kids reek all day :-D Other than that, looks like a great idea and is the sort of thing I'd consider if I did have a dog!

Honestly, the Beef and Cheddar smells a little funky but not too bad (especially for people who are used to having dogs around), and the Turkey and Cinnamon smells pretty good because the turkey isn't that pungent, so the cinnamon masks it.

That said, when you're taking freeze dried meats and putting them in a food processor to turn them into powder, it stinks to high heaven and you end up with a light dusting of meat powder all over your kitchen. I don't recommend trying it :P

Haha, rather you than me :-) This might be partly why I don't have a dog though! Good luck with this, seems a nice business!

Thank you!

I love the idea, and will see if I'm able to buy some later. But trans-atlantic shipment and tariffs adds up, unfortunately. And I'm unsure if customs would let animalia get into the EU without special license.

Edit: I see now that your comments indicate that you're US only. Just to make sure you're aware, your site calculates and suggests shipping to Europe.

Ah, thanks - I'll have to look into that. I'm not opposed to selling internationally, but to your point I probably need to do a whole lot more research before I do.

This is great! We have a chihuahua though and I don't think he could eat these. Looks like all you would need to do to support smaller dog breeds is include a smaller silicone tray. If you end up exploring that, hit me up at my e-mail in my profile and I may order a set!

Thanks and will do! At the moment I'm just buying the ice cube molds, and I haven't seen any that are smaller, but I'll keep an eye out.

In the mean time you can always just skip the Starter Kit and buy the mix directly (https://coopersdogtreats.com/collections/frontpage/products/... and https://coopersdogtreats.com/collections/frontpage/products/...), then use any ice cube mold/tray you happen to have around.

There are all kinds of molds for making formed chocolates that come in small sizes

Totally sold — my Akita loves ice cubes so he’s bound go wild for these especially in the summer.

Glad to hear it!

Do you have any experience with the marketing part? I am kinda in the same situation but have no clue how marketing works and was wondering if you could share any insights.

I started my career doing some marketing and then moved to product management, all in tech at small startups. Even as a PM, because I joined companies of <50 people, I ended up helping out with marketing too.

Google Ads are pretty straightforward, so at this point I'm just running a couple and watching conversion rates - you basically just need to look at how much you're spending vs. how much revenue they're bringing in to figure out if they're worth it.

IG advertising is new to me - I'm planning to reach out to some dog accounts to see if I can offer free samples and possibly money for them to promote. No idea about what the going rate for that sort of thing is or how effective it'll be, but I'll find out soon :)

If you need any help in terms of seo / ppc / social ads you can ping anytime, if you are intersted in some kind of joint-venture or something.

If you could share your product/url, you might get some marketing ideas from HN community.

Would love to buy one of these if there was a meat free variant, my dog is alergic to meat and does not take it well - would love to see a vegetarian option!

What service are you using for shipping? If you don't mind answering what are the costs of offering free shipping?

It's a Shopify site, so I'm just using their integration to print labels from whoever's cheapest - so far it's always been USPS. Honestly the shipping is something I need to figure out... I'm charging flat shipping per product right now until $50 because I don't want shipping costs to be too discouraging, but I am losing money shipping to the East Coast.

For the most part my margins are pretty decent and at this point I'm more interested in proving that there's product-market fit than optimizing for profit, so I don't mind losing some money when my shipping charges don't cover it or people hit the free shipping threshold. Definitely something I'm going to need to get a better handle on long term, though.

Let me know if you're interested in having an East Coast facility!

I appreciate the offer, but I think I am quite a ways away from that at this point :)

how do people generally get in contact with manufacturers?

I’m fascinated by people who can turn an idea into a product. Do you mind sharing your process?

I'm afraid it's not really very interesting - I moved to SD, it was very hot, and I wanted to make frozen treats for my dog (the Cooper of Cooper's treats). I looked up recipes, but they all had ingredients he's not a fan of, so I figured I'd make my own. Had some freeze dried meats, put those in a food processor, mixed with water and froze them. He loved them, but it was kind of a disgusting slop of a liquid at first. I played around with other ingredients to make it look/smell better, and we ended up with the flavors I have.

After that, I thought folks might want to buy these, so I had packaging and logo designs done on 99designs, set up a Shopify site, and here we are.

so it’s homemade, not done at a facility?

Very cool.

My dog loves the frozen bones with marrow, which I dub frobos.

I’m sure he would love these!

Thank you! I haven't tried frozen marrow bones, but I will definitely give them a whirl - I'm sure my dog would like them.

Oh wow this is looking great!

I'd certainly be a customer if I lived in the US.

Thanks so much! Hopefully one day we'll go international :)

The idea is pretty solid. I’d totally buy if it were grain free.

Thanks! I've been thinking about how to do it grain free, but it's really tough to get to that point and still keep it at a reasonable price.

I thought grain free wasn’t so cool anymore since that stuff came out about canine heart disease? Maybe I’m misremembering

obligatory question: did you eat your own dogfood?

I have sprinkled some of the cheese powder I use in my mac and cheese, but that's about the closest I get :P. Luckily my dogs are happy to help out.

I commented elsewhere about an East Coast presence... your comment above has me thinking about CBD infusion options, too.

Something I'm very familiar with for treating older woofs in pain, and spazzy "I hate the vet" woofs, haha! Hope to hear from you.

I just don't feel like I'm nearly educated enough on CBD in dogs to start using that as an ingredient. I know it's become very common very quickly, but I'd have to read all the research before I could consider it.

> I just don't feel like I'm nearly educated enough on CBD in dogs to start using that as an ingredient. I know it's become very common very quickly, but I'd have to read all the research before I could consider it.

It's been done:

https://www.carolinahempcompany.com/products/lalas-cbd-dog-t...

When hemp was still in the grey area they got hit with shut down by CDPHE at the behest of an undisclosed pharma giant. The creator of those treats was a friend of my co-founder and a regular at our parent company's events in CO where she sold her products. She might have gotten an award at the hemp awards, I'm not sure.

The efficacy of CBD is well understood, what isn't is the standardization and practices for effective administration be it in Humans or animals. My guess is you'd get into issues with freezing the hemp oil/extract infused cbd effectively. I mean you could use shatter, if you were really motivated.

Also, this could subject you to bank account shutdowns and business license delays if your bank(s) find out.

Source: Ex fintech founder with hemp farmers, and ex biodynamic farmer that studied hemp and its various properties during apprenticeship and biologist.

The FDA would probably have something to say about it. They don’t want CBD in human foods either and I believe they have sent warning letters for pet foods as well. (They call it “mislabeled” because it’s not a “food” but a drug since CBD is now used medically by Epidolex, or something like that)

Well, drop me an address if you want to exchange info for the future.

I use burners on social media, so, no info in my bio.

Who did you use for your packaging? What made you choose them?

I ran a 99Designs contest for a logo, and the winner of that also had some experience doing packaging design, so I used her: https://99designs.com/profiles/bettymar.

I just thought she really captured the feel I was looking for - it's an upscale product, but it's for dogs so I still wanted it to feel fun.

Very cool! I really like seeing you respond to all the questions in the thread. It's giving me a really eye-opening view into the nuts and bolts of bootstrapping a physical product company. Thank you so much for going into detail!

Thanks! I spent 10 years as a PM in enterprise SaaS, and my favorite part was always talking to our brick and mortar small business customers. Maybe it's just a grass is greener thing, but doing something with a tangible product has always just seemed so cool to me.

How about for a printer? Packaging manufacturing is complex

Maybe I just got lucky then... I just Googled "mailer box printing" or something like that, found a few sites and picked this one based on price: https://www.uprinting.com/.

The designer gave me image files that were formatted correctly, so I just sent them in and had boxes at my door a few days later. They look great: https://www.instagram.com/p/B-srBIsJgND/

thanks mate, my two dogs will love this. my dog just got spayed, and isn't taking to her treats. i think this would really make her happy.

I really hope it does!

This is great and it's something I'd definitely buy for my dog.

Thank you, glad to hear it!

That's unexpected but cool!

Thank you!